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Ground Zero cross can stay at 9/11 museum, appeals court rules

The World Trade Center cross, also known as the Ground Zero cross, is a group of steel beams found amid the debris of the World Trade Center following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

NEW YORK (RNS) A cross-shaped beam from the wreckage of the World Trade Center can remain on display in the National Sept. 11 Memorial and Museum at Ground Zero, a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled, dismissing a lawsuit brought by atheists.

The World Trade Center cross, also known as the Ground Zero cross, is a group of steel beams found amidst the debris of the World Trade Center following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

Creative Commons image by Imelda

The World Trade Center cross, also known as the Ground Zero cross, is a group of steel beams found amid the debris of the World Trade Center following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

American Atheists filed a federal suit in 2012 claiming the 17-foot display at the museum built with a mix of public and private funds was unconstitutional. The group said its members suffered from both physical and emotional damages from the presence of the beamed cross, resulting in headaches, indigestion and mental pain.

The atheist group filed an appeal after a lower court dismissed the lawsuit, shifting the focus from the cross to asking for an added plaque that would say something like “atheists died, too.”

An observer would understand that the cross was also an inclusive symbol for any persons seeking hope and comfort in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, federal Judge Reena Raggi wrote in the court’s decision.

“Such an observer would not understand the effect of displaying an artifact with such an inclusive past in a Museum devoted to the history of the September 11 attacks to be the divisive one of promoting religion over nonreligion,” she wrote. “Nor would he think the primary effect of displaying The Cross at Ground Zero to be conveying a message to atheists that they are somehow disfavored ‘outsiders,’ while religious believers are favored ‘insiders,’ in the political community.”

The beam was found by rescue workers two days after the terrorist attacks and is part of the 1,000 artifacts in a 100,000-square-foot underground museum. American Atheists can appeal to the entire court or ask the three-judge panel to reconsider its decision before it can file a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court.

“We argued from the beginning that this was a flawed legal challenge designed to re-write history and eliminate a powerful historical artifact,” said Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative legal firm that filed a brief in support of keeping the cross. “This bizarre legal challenge from an atheist group was exposed for what it was — a skewed legal challenge that had no merit.”


About the author

Sarah Pulliam Bailey

Sarah Pulliam Bailey is a national correspondent for RNS, covering how faith intersects with politics, culture and other news. She previously served as online editor for Christianity Today where she remains an editor-at-large.


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  • You know, I don’t have so much of a problem with atheists demanding the removal of religious symbolism…provided their demands be uniform and consistent and show no bias for one religion or another. If they are consistent in the calls for symbolism removal across all spectrums I see it as reinforcing a universal understanding of theirs which I can respect. It shows they have no favoritism and no bias.

    I do have a problem with the idea that the use of “public” money for something can only mean a secular thought can be expressed. “Public” as we are today, it pretty freakin diverse. Plenty of religious people are taxed, and the idea that since the “public” provided the funds then only a secular objective can be served with those funds….just seems dim witted.

    And don’t even waste your time saying “its the constitution”….yeah, we are picking and choosing on that poor scrap of paper. You either follow all of it to the letter thereby making it real and meaningful or just trash it already and we rethink the whole thing. Bur I’m not going to listen to someones “logic” that rests on a dead documents words in one instance but does not in another.

  • Always remember citizen…”they hate us for our freedom.”

    Haha. Is freedom even a concept that comes to mind in this country anymore?

  • To be honest, I thought it made more sense to leave it where it was before. Prominently displayed outside one of the oldest churches in NYC. Right next to the WTC complex. The church replaced it with a new sculpture which looks rather hideous and is without the same level of meaning attached to it.

    There are a lot of things to find fault with the new 9/11 memorial/museum. This is the least of my concerns. It is aesthetically fugly, difficult to photograph effectively, and too much concern is placed on herding people into the museum and gift shops.

    Putting into the publicly funded museum is a bit greedy on the part of the city. An effort to consolidate 9/11’s effects to one spot in the city. For the tourists. Ugh.

  • All hail the sanctity of the human blood sacrifice.
    Yeshua’s blood spilled with grace and holy white noise upon the altar of human bloody holy soil.

    Some delusional people decided an arbitrary beam of iron was god’s intentional calling card on a site where hundreds of innocent people were mindlessly slaughtered in cold blood in the name of that god – and this is NOT revolting?

    All religion is apparently just a sick death cult. This really unmasks the horror, abjection, nihilism and misery of religion.
    Enjoy your black ‘cross’ and it’s despicable message. May your celebration of death on 9/11 lead millions of others to see the light of reason and send this abysmal theology back to the dark ages.


  • Hey max.

    From your vantage point, what do you think of thr inconsistencies here? I mean one cross can stay, like this one, while around the country others have to go. In each case a judge at some level seems to be making the call and in this case, the cross is staying cause a judge says “an observers would think x”…or “an observer would not think y”.

    To me, it really does not matter that a judge projects a observer to be thinking or not thinking. It either is legal or its not. But I find it remarkable that the answer of whether it stays or goes is so arbitrary. I really don’t trust a judges best thinking in the matter and don’t think they should be. They just need to stick to the principal of the law.

    I realize doing so means the cross comes down. But so would the giant menorah in central park, and countless other places…and overall we’d have consistency which people need to know and understand their position relative to gov. I think predictability of law is an important thing.

  • I am not aware of many instances of other religions trying to add their prayers to public school, teach their creation myth in public school, display their religious symbols on public land. i.e. the 10 commandments in front of court houses (which is kind of ludicrous anyway considering only 3 of the 10 commandments are actual crimes and one of those 3 only in certain situations.)

    If they were I wouldn’t want their crap being endorsed anymore than christianity.

  • That seeing a cross at Ground Zero causes some atheists to have “physical and emotional” problems” like headaches, jndigestion, and emotional pain-as their lawsuit claimed–pnly shows how deep-seated some atheist’s bigotry and hatred goes.

  • Let me jump in and correct you here, kind sir, before a “free thinker” does.

    See, the word hatred and bigotry are trademarked words of thr liberal leftists and all the subgroups under that umbrella. As the self proclaimed worlds “free thinkers” , they by definition cannot be haters or bigots. Only lesser thinkers (the religous except most judaism) are worthy of the terms as you are not scientific, cannot comprehend science as evidenced by your god beliefs, and therefore are the defacto group left worthy of the term. Someone has to be.

    Its not a two way street. Only the religious can be bigots. Only they can hate a worldview that is not their own. Liberals of course will not admit to hating you for holding your worldview or voting the same, but they will publicly shame you into a correct state of mind, and if you resist further. They are not above labeling you an extremist who might be a terrorist but is certainly scary enough to warrant laws saying they conform to secular society. You know, like force their scouting groups to be open to homosexual leaders, members, etc. Oh, never mind that most scout members are underage anyway and only a total freak would obsess over the future sexual deviations of a boy. The point it making you conform.

    There. I hope you have learned your lesson. Be got and don’t vote based on a religious worldview again. This is america, after all.

  • @Deacon John,

    That is what Ground Zero is all about.

    Ground Zero should be the least religious place on earth.

    It is already a monument to a God who did not intervene except as an inspiration to Mohammed Atta and the hijackers.
    It is a monument to a God named Allah.
    It is a monument to the FAITH of Mohammed Atta and the hijackers.
    It is a monument to the power of PURE, UNQUESTIONING religion.
    It is a monument to the FAITH of Osama Bin Laden.
    It is a monument to the FAITH of Al Queda.
    It is a monument to the FAITH of Islam.

    Ground Zero
    is a monument to religion and every evil thing that RELIGION and FAITH is capable of.

    So, Deacon John….Tell me more about your worship of FAITH.
    Tell me, Deacon.
    What need to we have of evidence or facts when we can put up a monument to the claims of blood sacrifice and FAITH.

    Nothing says love of FAITH, love of RELIGION and SUPERSTITION
    Like a 1st century torture device celebrating human blood sacrifice.

    You are Soooo missing the point.

  • @ronald,

    Foolish Atheists?

    ATHEIST MAX – “I see no evidence of a god. Therefore,
    I’m not going to hurt anyone in the name of something I cannot prove or demonstrate.”

    Fr. Anathole Serromba – “You just need Faith”
    Yasser Arafat – “You just need Faith”
    Ariel Sharon – “You just need Faith”
    Marshall Herff Applewhite, Jr. – “You just need Faith”
    Jim Jones – “You just need faith”
    Fred Phelps – “You just need Faith”
    Mohammed Atta – “You just need Faith”
    Osama Bin Laden – “You just need Faith”

    Jesus – “Execute them in front of me” (Luke 19:27)
    “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed!”
    (Corinthians 16:22)

    Jeesh. Religion, who needs you?

  • The first amendment isn’t a liscence to trample other people’s religious liberties because you’re a whiny atheist who’s butt hurt at anyone not thinking you’re the center of the universe.

  • You have been lying to people now for quite a while with your “Execute them in front of me” quote.

    I can only conclude you are really not an atheist, but some sort of performance artist who wants to bring shame and derision on atheists. You want to make atheists look bad. Perhaps you are a plant of the church. No serious atheist would take the words that are sooken by a bad man in one of Jesus parables and attribute them to Jesus – it’s just a slimy lie, really. So you must not be an atheist at all.

  • Atheism is just a sick death cult. Remember the 100 million that they killed via communism? Atheists were all in favor of that. They loved the idea of a religionless state. Look where it led them.
    French revolution much? More thousands of dead due to the horrors of atheism.

    And they have the gall to throw stones at others, when their death toll is far larger, their misery toll is far greater. What hypocrites!

  • Jesus still loves you, little Max

    Tonight, our town will host a prayer vigil for Atheist Max. 10,000 are expected to appear.

  • @Bill TC,

    Name the Atheists you accuse of these crimes.
    The usual suspects were not Atheists.

    Meanwhile, why are Atheists so good?

    95% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences are Atheists.
That is about 3,000 people.

    55% of the doctors working for Doctors Without Borders are Atheists (22,000 members worldwide working for free every day)

    100% of American Association of Atheists (60,000) has the lowest crime statistics of any group in the country.

    If morality comes from Jesus, God or Allah,
    one would expect these Atheists to be stealing, raping, murdering
    and hated everywhere.

    Instead, these groups are the most stable, peaceful, productive, generous individuals in society.

    Billionaires who happen to be Atheists
    are among the most generous people in our society:

    Warren Buffett
Bill Gates

    Jeff Bezos

    Carl Icahn

    The religious Christian billionaires are power mad fascists:

    The Koch Brothers

    Rupert Murdoch

    Atheists are almost never arrested.
Their numbers in prison are so small that it is statistically zero. (Pew)
Atheists almost never end up in jail.
Atheists (non-believers) make up 10% of the American population.

    But they cause almost NONE of the crime.

    Less than .05% of the prison population is Atheist.

    The huge majority in prison are Christian, Muslim and
other religions.
    To whom shall we credit their immorality?

    Atheists are not only good without god – They are statistically the best behaving members of society.

Norway, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand are simultaneously the most peaceful, successful
and most Atheistic countries in the world.

    And where Christianity is strong 
you find dramatic inequality of wealth:
(Latin America, North America),
    High tolerance for fascism
 (Italy, Greece, Spain, Texas)
    High of repression of women’s rights (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Texas)
And high use of the Death penalty (Texas)

    Morality seems to be better handled by Atheists! MUCH BETTER.

    And before you rebut this by bringing up the usual suspects:
    Pol Pot, Hirohito, Stalin and Kim il sun

    – be aware that I will point with conclusive evidence that these straw men are religionists with strong unfounded beliefs and convictions.

  • Prayer Vigil:
    “A gathering of people victimized by religion into acting and thinking like babies that standing around in the dark with candles gets the attention of a god whose Almighty Will they reject (thus the prayer) and whose promises of Heaven they don’t believe (thus the vigil) and whose manipulation they implore with a practically invisible flame as if the creator of a trillion quadrillion watt suns would notice a candle and change his mind.”

    Don’t bother yourselves. Really.

  • Federal Judge Reena Raggi is dead wrong in all respects, especially constitutional considerations. The cross is a christian symbol and should never have been put at the site or allowed to remain. There is no way it is an “inclusive symbol for persons seeking hope and comfort after 9/11.” The cross has never been inclusive, it has always been particular to christianity. Judge Raggi has no business on any court bench. She is as prejudiced and rules with the very same bigotry demonstrated by the Catholic majority of our Catholic Supreme Court!

    Raggi and the five prejudiced Catholics who dominate our Supreme Court should all be impeached. Even better, federal judges should never have been given life tenure by the Constitution. Those were different times. As clairvoyant as the Framers were, they did not foresee the the religious bigotry and economic wrongs as in Citizens United that might ensue from such tenure in later years.

    The Constitution must be amended so that federal judges are term-limited and that the people have a say in their nominations, appointments, and continuation on any bench. Sleazy politicians have been doing a sleazy job–as in everything else they do. Of course, only lazy and ignorant voters can be blamed for the sleaze in the legislative and executive branches.

    What symbol is raised to commemorate people of no religious faith? This location must commemorate civic desolation, civic reminders. It should not be turned into any religion or church. Let religious people do that in their own homes and churches if they wish. They absolutely have no right to do that in a public place, and Raggi is dead wrong and plainly prejudiced, in falsely claiming that right! She should be impeached! And the people should have a right to impeach her.

  • No monument to anything religious–or non-religious–because history continues to show, as the Framers of our Constitution knew so well, that any mixture of church and state results in “a sickness unto death.”

  • Kevin: The coin of religious freedom has two side, like all coins. The side you have never seen is “Freedom from religion.” If you flip your coin you might be able to rid yourself of religious prejudice.

  • @Bill TC,
    Let your words of Jesus sink in.
    Think about how evil he really is:


    “The master shall cut him to pieces” – Jesus (Luke 12) JESUS describes what he intends to do to his own enemies, whoever they may be.


    “..bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King, and execute them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)


    “Drown him with a millstone” (Matt 18:6),


    “And why do you break the command of God
 for the sake of your tradition? …. ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ ” (Matthew 15:3)


    “Judge [them] unworthy…remove your blessings of PEACE” (Matt 10:13)


    “I have come to bring FIRE…What constraints! I am impatient to bring..DIVISION.” (Luke 12:49-51)


    “Hate your parents…hate your life”(Luke 14:26)


    “Eat of my body” and “Be baptized and believe” or “Be condemned to Hell” (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).

    Want more?
    Just let me know.

  • @Bill TC,

    I’m very clearly not lying:

    “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their king and EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME.” – JESUS

    Every single Christian reference and interpretation describes the nobleman in the parable of the minas AS JESUS HIMSELF.

  • You write riddles, Ronald. Before you attempt to prove that a perpendicular crossing of beans is any sign from any god, it would be necessary to reenter the real world and leave all the political mythology of Constantine and religion behind, you know, magical stuff like, “In hoc sign vinces.”

    However, Constantine was a politician as well as a warrior. A “believer” who called and dominated the Council of Trent, but was never himself baptized until on his death bed twelve years later. And there were no witnesses to that claimed entry to Christianity by the emperor except his very close coterie, including possibly a few of his family that he had not murdered.

    You err gravely in writing as if religious beliefs and religious symbols are facts. That is a contradiction of religion and belief. It makes no fools of atheists. And to claim that atheists are fools is a gross contradiction of the virtue that Jesus claimed was the greatest of all, charity.

    I would revise Jesus’ list to four virtues by adding honesty. And I would claim that honesty is the greatest of all because it undergirds faith, hope, charity, and everything else. If religion is good, religious acts will be good, they will never show any repetition of the sordid evils of which the history of religion is so sadly full.

  • Gates is apparently not an atheist as he attends church on an occasional basis. Wrong as usual Max

  • I was going to comment…but forget it, your inane ‘intellectual’ superiority, which shows through ever comment you make. is so silly and laughable its pathetic, particularly your take on ‘myths’ and the founding of our nation. Well read, you are, but you remind me of the old maxim, He/She has remembered everything and learned nothing.

  • Personally, I’d like to see the place plastered with all the symbols of religion, with a huge sign above all o them that reads, “Remember, religious belief caused this”.

  • Wrong, DIOGENES

    “Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There’s a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning.”

    “God? I don’t have any evidence on that”
    “I take a scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen.”

    “You see, antiquated ideas of kindness and generosity are simply bugs that must be programmed out of our world. And these cold, unfeeling machines show us the way.”

    – Bill Gates
    (Rejects religion. Is a Non-believer in God)

    ATHEIST = “I do not believe God exists”

  • Kevin, show me where in the 1st Amendment you have a right to have your religion subsidized by the government? To establish church with government assistance.

    Oh wait, such things are forbidden under the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause.

  • Bill TC,

    Google took me straight to
    Here’s the King James: “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”

    For Atheist Max’s second quote, gives us the famous King James’s “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha” so beloved of Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann.

    It rather looks to me as though your “lying to people now for quite a while” is, uh, a mistake perhaps?

    Might a retraction and apology be in order?


  • The least competent 1L could have seen months ago that this lawsuit was going nowhere. It had so little legal basis as to be laughable. When your requested relief is not to see the cross removed but an “Atheists Died Here Too” plaque, you’ve already lost. It’s sad to see people who know nothing about the law attack the integrity of these judges but such is the Internet. (it is amusing though to see them get trolled by ronald), By the way, although Judge Raggi was nominated by Reagan and George W. Bush to the district and circuit courts, the other two judges on the decision were nominated by those two far-right religious zealots, Clinton and Obama.

  • If you read of the actions and the way religion was treated in our country’s first years it was far, far from the fantasy world the “freedom from religion” secular crowd lives in today.

  • So what? Atheism doesn’t tell a person to act one way or the other, nor does it provide you with justification to a particular mean to an end. So if Stalin or whoever was an atheist and killed millions of people, There is nothing to blame but Stalin himself and any people to willingly went along with the slaughter.

    His lack of a supernatural father figure to shake his finger at Stalin was not the cause, if he was in fact an atheist. The Prison systems are full of people who believe in God, therefore God being a deterrent for an individuals behavior has been thoroughly debunked.

    How many more prominent “family values” christians need to get caught having affairs, committing sexual assaults etc etc for you to realize belief in God doesn’t stop anyone from doing anything.

    Hell Christianity even gives EVERYBODY an out, no matter what crimes you commit. So If Stalin repented and accepted Jeebus and all that. God would be all, “Millions Shmillions Stali boy, welcome to heaven!” Stalin Strolls through the pearly gates right past some poor chap thinking WTF in his head, because Stalin had him slowly dismembered over the course of a week until he died back in 46′.

  • Im convinced you are an atheist trolling.

    Seriously believing that 2 beams in the shape of a cross in tons of rubble is a sign from God is as bad as really believing you see jesus on a potato chip and its a sign from God.

    2 beams ending up in the shape of a cross in tons upon tons of beams is hardly remarkable.

  • @Deacon,

    yeah. And we are not going back to witch burnings.
    Because of the Establishment Clause all that Christian VS. Christian internicine warfare stuff is now illegal.

    Except now RFRA and an ignorant SCOTUS are putting religious warfare back in play via Corporate Power.
    So it is like saying, “Slavery is outlawed…but now we have this little loophole….”

  • Hi Max,

    >>55% of the doctors working for Doctors Without Borders are Atheists

    You have made this claim a couple of times. Could you please provide your source for this? I’ve looked all over the internet and could not find it.


    “Viva Cristo Rey!!”

  • So all the other people who appreciate the Ground Zero Cross are also athiests trolling? Huh? Must not be any real Christians out there if professing our believes makes us athiests trolling.

    I did not put the cross there myself and I did not fight the legal battle to keep it, so obviosly I am not the only one. So why is that trolling?

  • Right on, deacon! It actually is worse then that. It shows they are DEMONICALLY POSSESED and need to be EXERCISED.

  • Clearly a loving god would be sure to leave the sign of a cross…instead of saving the 3000 people who died horribly. Great god to worship!

  • @ronald,

    Yes, Exercise.

    I recommend the treadmill.
    Because it is repetitive, you won’t need to change direction and you’ll cover the same familiar challenges with the same familiar knee jerk.

  • Deacon Harbey Santiago,

    Atheism is non-belief in a god. For this statistic I am including doctors who say they “have no use for a god in their practice” (from the National Institutes of Health).

    Support for this claim:
    1) Most doctors in this organization are from Europe. France where 45% of doctors claim no belief in god, Northern Europe where 70% of doctors claim no belief in a god. And North America where 22% of doctors claim no belief in a god and 61% claim “NO USE FOR A GOD” in their practice.
    I include this category because doctors in other, more religious charities would not be allowed to say this.

    The Charter of Doctors Without Borders is deliberately non-religious and politically neutral, which attracts a higher percentage of Atheist doctors who might otherwise feel out of place donating their time to a religious organization with stricter limits on what can and cannot be treated (abortions, contraception.)

    The data regarding the percentage of Atheist doctors with “Doctors without Borders” is compiled as an estimate based on a blend of data – including the religious practices of the medical personnel according to religion statistics from the countries from which the volunteers come from:

    United States

    From Medicins Sans Frontiers/ Doctors Without Borders website:

    “MSF offers assistance to people based on need and irrespective of race, religion, gender, or political affiliation. We give priority to those in the most serious and immediate danger. Our decisions are not based on political, economic, or religious interests. MSF does not take sides or intervene according to the demands of governments or warring parties.”

    FURTHER Data on the religiosity of American Doctors in general:

    “Compared with the general population, physicians are more likely to be affiliated” with beliefs that are “underrepresented in the United States more generally” (Hindu, Atheism, Agnosticism, Muslim), less likely to say they try to carry their religious beliefs over into all other dealings in life (58% vs 73%), twice as likely to consider themselves spiritual but not religious (20% vs 9%), and twice as likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God (61% vs 29%).” *

    Source; American Institutes of Health

    The 22,000 medical volunteers who work for DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS are likely to be among the least religious people in society. 55% Atheism (or non-belief) is likely to be a conservative number.

  • @Deacon Harbey Santiago,

    “In a 2003 poll… 33% as atheist, 14% as agnostic, and 26% as “indifferent.”*

    ATHEIST = “I do not believe in a god”
    AGNOSTIC = “I do not know if god exists so I do not believe”
    INDIFFERENT = “I do not believe a god matters”

    ADDS UP TO 73%
    of France population for whom belief in a god is apparently irrelevant. It should surprise nobody that people in the medical sciences would be even more openly disbelieving.

    *U.S. Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor. “International Religious Freedom Report 2004”. Retrieved 2006-03-05.

  • Max,
    You said:
    Atheism is non-belief in a god. For this statistic I am including doctors who say they “have no use for a god in their practice” (from the National Institutes of Health).

    Support for this claim:
    1) Most doctors in this organization are from Europe. France where 45% of doctors claim no belief in god, Northern Europe where 70% of doctors claim no belief in a god. And North America where 22% of doctors claim no belief in a god and 61% claim “NO USE FOR A GOD” in their practice.
    Please do not take this the wrong way (I’m not trying to offend you, am actually trying to help you), but take it from someone with a bit of experience with statistical analysis (BS in Engineering, Minor in Math, MS in Computer Sciences) this is not the way data from different data sets is used.
    If I were you I would just drop this argument from my repertoire, it really does not stand to critical analysis.

    “Viva Cristo Rey!!”

  • @Deacon Harbey Santiago,

    I will concede your point completely. I cannot justify my claim.

    Please note the irony
    that all of YOUR CLAIMS about God,
    Jesus and afterlife are completely vacuous, completely contradictory and are pulled from thin air. You have not one shred of evidence and no eyewitness testimony for your religious claims which are no better than the religious claims of thousands of other religions including Islam and Hinduism.

    You hold me to a standard of evidence
    you will not apply to yourself.

    But I fully embrace your valid objection
    and shall re-write the information on Atheist doctors. (would you do the same with Jesus? I doubt it.)

    I will no longer claim 55% of those doctors to be Atheist as this cannot be confirmed based on evidence. I think it seems a FAIR and reasonable guess – but I agree, I cannot claim it to be true.

    But I will maintain that MANY of the doctors with DWB are Atheist.
    I have met some of them personally.

    In researching this topic I have found
    That doctors are twice as likely to be atheist as the general population from which they come.*

    In the USA, 26% of all doctors claim ‘NO BELIEF IN A GOD’ as of 2005.



    If this is true for physicians in the USA where religion is dominant, Atheism will be even more pronounced in other countries where religion is a joke (France).

    My objective is to educate people on this important fact:

    Atheists – many of whom are doctors – are doing heroic work for humanity all around the world and yet they are treated as second class citizens in the United States.

    And it is time to start respecting Atheist humanists for their decency, their commitment to humanity and their rightful place alongside others whose morality and decency deserve the highest honors.

  • MY FORMER CLAIM: “55% of the Doctors at DWB are Atheist”
    will be replaced with “Many of the doctors at DWB are Atheist”

    My overall point remains completely unchallenged:

    Atheists are every bit as deserving of respect as any believer ever was.

  • Because your God does not require my taxes or government power to support it.

    Why must your religion leave its “tramp stamp” over all public works? Essentially it is telling the world that our government is only for use by Christians.

  • Atheist Max,
    Don’t be too hard on yourself for rounding out the number of atheist doctors – I am a nurse and I think most doctors and nurses would admit that they see no sign of any Gods at work in the E.R. either for cures or illnesses. The drunk drivers often live to walk out of the hospitals yet the innocent victims are the dead or most injured. Doctors won’t talk about their lack of belief for fear of it getting back to a patient. They have had ample time to figure out that god is doing nothing for sick children. just go to a children’s hospital and you will know there is no god.
    But doctors will do anything to help patients. Sick people are not in a position to have these notions challenged. Doctors know it would be immoral to speak up about their Atheism in that particular setting. Are there millions of Atheist doctors? Abso-freakin’-lootely.

  • how can anything even remotely considered as religious cause such grief? As a nurse in Tampa, Fla, I can tell you that seeing a cross in an E.R. setting is very uncomfortable. To non-believers like me it is just a torture device.
    Imagine if every cross you ever saw was a little guillotine instead?

    And besides, how would you feel if someone put a religion on your mother’s grave which was not the religion she believed? You can’t call it ‘meaningful to you’ and at the same time say it is meaningless to others.
    Jesus was nothing special. Not if little torture devices peppered around the globe is the best he can offer.

  • the great deception.
    Where is the true cross is ground zero?
    if we see pictures of crosses, found in the rubble of ground zero and have placed as a monument, we will realize that having the cross section on the interior of the beam and the other on the outside.
    Who’s got the true cross of ground zero?
    look at the original link. Zero-Zone New-York_TINIMA20110802_0787_5.jpg

  • I think it is unfounded that atheist object to a17 foot memorial shaped as a cross. There is much more room there with no memorial that the atheist can claim denoting their belief in nothing. However if the atheist want a memorial just for them, that would be fine. I think an eternal flame would be appropriate.

  • It is obvious you do not know how to read, and have taken Jesus’ Words out of context. You claim Jesus said many things, when in context, was actions OTHER people had done. You have twisted the teachings of Jewish Law to say what it does not. The Law was given to show that we condemn ourselves. Jesus taught that we need a way to be released from the consequence of our actions. Don’t you realize Jesus was a Jew? He lived under Jewish Law. He was talking to Jews about the requirements under Jewish Law. Jesus taught that it is impossible to follow the Law in order to avoid the consequences of our wrong doing. I notice that your references were BEFORE Jesus died. When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the consequences for ALL sin. Every thing changed at that point. Even the unbeliever’s sin (YOUR sin) was paid in full. So All the “evil” you say Jesus did is a lie. Jesus made a way every person can be cleansed from sin. Just believe in your heart that Jesus is your Lord. Why do you want to fight that?

  • Morality has nothing to do with Christianity. Sin is not a factor in being a Christian. So all your examples are foolish. You need to realize religion is not Christianity. Religion is man trying to reach God by DOING something. Man can never reach God. Christianity is believing Jesus is Lord. A Christian has been released from the consequences of sin.

  • It seems the bloggers on this page do not know what religion is. Religion is man’s attempt to reach God by DOING something. Catholics, Baptist, Mormon, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and so on are all religions. They all have their rules on how to live. You will notice that I did not list Christianity. Why? Because Christianity is NOT a religion. Christianity is a belief. Jesus released us from rituals of religion. The constitution does not allow the government to establish religion. Government is free to do as it wishes to support, or not, an established religion. However the constitution is silent on the subject of Christianity.