Beliefs Culture Jana Riess: Flunking Sainthood Opinion Politics

Anti-LGBT bias means we are all responsible for Orlando

University of the Philippines students display glasses with lit candles and a placard as a tribute to those killed in the Pulse nightclub mass shooting in Orlando, during a protest at the school campus in Quezon city, Metro Manila, Philippines on June 14, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Erik De Castro

A guest post by Robert A. Rees, Ph.D.

“It is not only for what we do that we are held responsible, but also for what we do not do.” –Moliere

We are all responsible for what happened in Orlando.

I am responsible for what happened in Orlando. The morning of the Orlando massacre I was talking on the phone with a friend, a university professor, who casually said she had just turned off the television because she saw two men kissing.

I said, ”Well, some men do kiss,” to which she responded, “Not that kind of kiss!”

I thought of that when I read the news later that day about the tragedy in Orlando and the fact that, according to the father of the mass-murderer, Omar Mateen, his son was enraged at seeing two men kissing.

While the motive for the mayhem perpetrated by Mateen is turning out to be more complex than that, we know enough about the violence against LGBT people worldwide to know that the revulsion toward any affectionate or romantic expression by gays is deep seated and dangerous. The recent news that a judge in Kenya has upheld mandatory anal examinations of men suspected of being gay is only the most recent example of the persistent savagery perpetrated against gay men.

I am responsible for what happened in Orlando because I should have confronted my friend’s homophobia directly and told her that I found it offensive. Every anti-gay joke we listen to silently, every homophobic slur we fail to counter, every hostile act against LGBT people we witness without standing up and speaking out makes us complicit in what happened in Orlando.

We are all responsible for what happened in Orlando.

I am responsible for what happened in Orlando because when I heard Donald Trump speak of Mexicans as killers and rapists, I didn’t do anything except agree with my friends that it was an egregious slur.

When I heard him speak of Muslims as potential terrorists who should be banned from entering the United States, I didn’t call my Muslim friends to console them and I didn’t meet with my Muslim colleagues at Graduate Theological Union to ask how I could help.

We are all responsible for what happened in Orlando.

I am responsible because even though I find our current gun laws bordering on insanity, I haven’t written to my congressional representatives expressing outrage that not only are they unwilling to enact a ban on assault weapons, they aren’t even willing to ban their sale to people on the Terror Watch List.

Neither have I supported the efforts of gun-control groups working to counter gun violence. I didn’t do anything about Columbine, about Sandy Hook, about Ft. Hood, about San Bernardino–but I am determined to do something about Orlando, because I feel responsible for what happened in that bar where so many gays and Latinos were slaughtered by a man who was able to legally buy an assault weapon.

We are all responsible for what happened in Orlando—and we all will be responsible for what happens the next time someone is able to buy a rifle whose designed purpose is to kill lots of people quickly and indiscriminately.

While we are all responsible for what happened in Orlando, some of us are more responsible than others:

  •    Those of us who persist in fictions and fables about homosexuality
  •    State and local lawmakers who have passed 200 anti-LGBT laws in the past year
  •    Those of us who camouflage our bigotry in the rhetoric of religious liberty
  •    Those of us who support party over principle
  •    Corporations that discriminate against gays, Latinos, blacks, Muslims or any other category of human beings
  •    Especially, the National Rifle Association which uses fear, intimidation and coercion to ensure that there are no limitations on the sale and possession of weapons, resulting, according to Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, in more American preschoolers being shot dead than police officers are shot in the line of duty. Also, on average, more Americans are killed annually by guns in our homes and schools and on our streets than were killed by guns annually during the Civil War.

But enough of us dream of an America free of homophobia, racial hatred, Islamophobia, misogyny, and the gun lobby that we have the power to bring change.

As Delmore Schwartz reminds us, “In dreams begin responsibilities.” We are all responsible—and will continue to be as long as we fail to act.

Rees, Bob

 

Robert A. Rees, Ph.D., is a Visiting Professor at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley.

 


Other posts by Robert Rees:


 

About the author

Jana Riess

Senior columnist Jana Riess is the author of many books, including "The Prayer Wheel" (Random House/Convergent, 2018) and "The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church" (Oxford University Press, 2019). She has a PhD in American religious history from Columbia University.

196 Comments

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  • Good article that hits home. All of us can and should do more to end homophobia and to hold those who still promulgate it accountable for spreading hate and intolerance.

  • There you are being exactly the sort of hateful bigot the article addresses. If you cannot separate your hateful views about LGBT from your alleged faith in Christ, then just be quiet about both. No one wants to hear how hating gays will get you in good with Jesus.

  • i agree with the points made in the post. I would add another. I am responsible for what happened because I belong to a church whose leaders have long held anti LGBT thoughts and words and actions and I allow them to do it.

  • I am not Mormon, but I sincerely commend those Mormons who have taken (and continue to take) a stand against homosexual marriage and homosexual behavior.

    The reality is that the evil of gay marriage in America was visibly delayed by at least 10 or 20 years, because of the huge (and peaceful) efforts of the Latter-Day Saints. Those efforts have not been without cost, in terms of anti-church threats, vandalisms, etc. Mormons have been standing strong, while other groups (like the Methodists) have failed the test and messed themselves up.

    As for Orlando, **the guy with the gun** is the sole party to blame for that terrible tragedy. Meanwhile, the unnamed college professor is correct: it’s time to STOP accepting and appeasing the Gay Religion. It’s time to say no.

  • Mateen, the killer, was probably gay, closeted and under extreme pressure by religion to conform to a “straight” life. He chose to harm others in an effort to “please” God. That’s exactly why there no longer is room to be tolerant of anti-LGBT religious extremism. Anti-gay Christians and/or Muslims must be held accountable, as was the hate-mongering anti-gay “Christian” pastor in Sacramento who got the lease on his church yanked after he said Christians should rejoice in the Orlando massacre.

  • The Mormons paid a price for their anti-gay rhetoric and actions. Prop 8 cost them about 1/3 of their California membership and over half the lucrative donations from California. They are suffering a similar internal backlash over their new anti-LGBT policies, as well they should. While Mormonism has a lot to offer, the LDS Church has nothing for anyone who is in anyway different from the norm as Mormons define it.

  • Actually, there was a great deal of speculation, including my own, that Mateen was not “a homosexual”, but the latest in a long line of homosexual-hating homosexuals, who have their own war on decent gay people for daring to live openly in a way that the h-h-h-‘s cannot even whisper to themselves in the dark when they are on an Arctic vacation.

    But, here ya go:

    From the Los Angeles Times:

    Since the shooting at an Orlando nightclub last week that left 49 people dead, reports have emerged that gunman Omar Mateen frequented the gay club, used gay dating apps and had gay lovers. But the FBI has found no evidence so far to support claims by those who say Mateen had gay lovers or communicated on gay dating apps, several law enforcement officials said.

    Mateen, 29, told police negotiators he had carried out the shooting that began at 2 a.m. June 12 and ended, after a three-hour standoff, when he was killed by police. He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.

    Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack’d and Adam4Adam. In seeking to verify the reports, federal agents have culled Mateen’s electronic devices, including a laptop computer and cellphone, as well as electronic communications of those who made the claims, law enforcement officials said.

    So far, they have found no photographs, no text messages, no smartphone apps, no gay pornography and no cell-tower location data to suggest that Mateen — who was twice married to women and had a young son — conducted a secret gay life, the officials said.
    so there you have it. I am happy to admit I was wrong, except of course, that I don’t think so.

  • The gay religion?
    Doc Anthony, is that you?
    What about the evil of having a holy book that supersedes the gospel? Paul himself said that if anyone should present a gospel other than his. that person would be accursed. The Mormons have the one, the true, the RESTORED church. All the rest of you have false churches.
    So it would seem that the real issue for you is gay people, and not religion.

  • I agree with Spuddie et al. In fact, Christianity is losing members largely because many of them are appalled by views such as yours. On the other hand, it may relieve you to consider the notion that, based upon your viewpoint, Christianity is simply “purifying” itself.

  • “So it would seem that the real issue for you is gay people, and not religion.”

    So true, for so many.

  • Consider how many people (emphasis) have been driven to suicide by anti-LGBT religious devilry.
    How many have found life on this Earth to be utterly unlivable thanks to these ungodly “faithful”?

  • Nope. You are dead wrong. Actually it completely backfired for the anti-gay bigots. Had they done nothing, not spent their time, money and resources to institute a clearly discriminatory laws, there would be no judicial precedent to grant gay marriage. The courts would never had gotten involved in the first place. There would be no 14th Amendment question.

    Without the discriminatory gay marriage bans and the courts, it would probably take at least a decade or so for gay marriage to be accepted nationwide by legislative means. But the malicious nature of the anti-gay crowd could not be sated. Rather than trust the apathy of the voting public and desperately afraid that public opinion would work against them over time, they sought to foreclose the possibility of gay marriage being voted in. So they instituted clearly discriminatory laws which lacked even the most basic rational and secular basis.

    So no, the Mormons did not delay gay marriage in the US, they hastened it.

    And btw it is bigotry like yours and whatever reactionary version of religious belief drove the shooter. I can see why you would want to disassociate your beliefs from the shooters. Its embarrassing.

  • Since “homosexual marriage and homosexual behavior” have absolutely no negative effects whatsoever on the lives of Mormons or anyone else, why do you “sincerely commend those Mormons?” Obviously, it’s a prime example of how, in your delusional religious world, reason, evidence, facts, and logic are routinely dismissed as irrelevant trivialities.

  • It’s 2016. Why do you continue clinging to myths and fantasies while obviously dismissing reason, evidence, facts, and logic as irrelevant trivialities? Well, I suppose the myths and fantasies are mentally easier and less expensive because your library only needs to consist of one book.

  • Oh yes, it’s me Ben. Anthony is one of my names.

    Actually, the Holy Book you mentioned, gives you and me a Gospel in which Jesus not only saves a person from their sins, but actually removes their sins from them (it’s a process), and heals the damage that got done (1 Cor 6:9-11, 1 Cor: 10:13). This includes homosexual behavior.

    I don’t know if they still are supporting it, but the Mormons used to have an ex-gay organization of their own. I hope they still have one.

  • No doubt about it, the Mormons really paid the penalty big-time, for the historic stand they took.

    American Christians aren’t used to having to pay anything at all for what they believe. It’s been an easy ride, a free ride.

    But now that Gay Marriage is the law of the land (and also the religion of the land), Christians will have to either shut up, or else PAY a big price like the Mormons paid. Some small Christian businesses and families have already found this out.

    Many more Christians will find out SOON.
    .

  • Last time I checked, **the guy with the gun** wasn’t a Christian, and he endorsed some odd-sounding group other than First Baptist.

    And didn’t somebody recently say something about the shooter’s, ummm, “sexual orientation” ?

  • I can always recognize your hoof print.

    As far as I know, the Mormons still have an Exgay group.

    But I notice, you didn’t address the real issue of my posting, not that you ever do. As long as the Mormons agree with you about homosexuality, they are just ducky in your book, which would other wise call them accursed and apostate.

    It is so much NOT about religion at all, is it.

  • That is the part you focus on?

    I guess the whole refutation of your premise the LDS slowed down national acceptance of marriage equality was spot on. OK.

    The shooter felt loathing for gays. Something not only perpetuated by religious beliefs like your own but put unto practice through discrimination, denigration and malice. All allegedly inspired by God. Reactionary Christians and Muslims both share that view. It’s not nice to consider things in such a light, but that is the he situation we have.

    You can’t demonize a group and then suddenly claim you are qualitatively different from someone who did the same and acted on it.

  • I, too, do not enjoy seeing two men kissing in public. This makes me a homophobe? I also don’t care to see people walking around naked in public. I guess that makes me a nudeophobe?

    Be careful when you assign labels. It puts up a barrier that makes it hard for me to hear you.

  • Despite my disagreement with the authors motivations, the author is still RIGHT: We ARE all responsible for the Orlando massacre, and we ALL deserve to die for that complicity. Thankfully, the Author of All Creation has given His Son, God in His own right, as propitiation for the root of all that responsibility – sin itself. The problem is that the author doesn’t seem to be aware of this.

    This type of self-blame is more thinly veiled accusation and less honest self-reflection. The author makes that clear through statements like, “revulsion toward any affectionate or romantic expression by gays is deep seated and dangerous,” and “some of us are more responsible than others,” (followed by a list of progressive liberal talking points).

    To be effective witnesses, evangelical Christians must emulate Christ – demonstrating the Godly love without endorsing the sinful behavior. The challenge is nearly all media coverage of a Christian taking a stand against sinful behavior, regardless of how lovingly it is done, is presented as “deep seated and dangerous” homophobia. The message of love, no matter how well communicated at the time of the witness, is blanketed by the media need to draw eyeballs through sensationalism. Perhaps – just perhaps – if main-stream media would focus a bit more on the intent of the love and less on the action on the opposition, a less rocky, more fertile ground might be nurtured in which new believers can take root.

  • Here is a short list Iron Wolf- 1. Anti LGBT policy that was partially constructed with assistance from a well known law firm in SLC. Children being excluded can not be supported by scriptural or any other justification that holds up to analysis. 2. A University that used to use anti scientific methods such as shock therapy to “cure” gay people. 3. Anti gay rhetoric from the highest leaders- Can anyone say Boyd K Packer? 4. Using tithing funds to fight against political equality laws for the LGBT community. Now they are trying to do it in Mexico. One point- ALL money is tithing money. There is no such thing as business money that can be diverted to uses such as that. It ALL is supposed to belong to the Lord and support the poor.5. I hear so many members echo anti-gay sentiment with words such as “Love the sinner but hate the sin” Why do I only hear that in regards to LGBT people instead of rapists, murders, etc. Iron Wolf, how are we pro LGBT?

  • Dr. Rees has written a first rate article. Thank you.

    A few commenters below were quick to illustrate the harmful words and behavior he described so well. It’s so revealing that regard for ‘spreading god’s message’ and ‘calling out the sin’ only extends to a very few items, like LBTG people, women’s full autonomy, and one or 2 others. I don’t recall seeing such organization and focus against payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence or child abuse.

    Hmmm. Now why might that be?

  • Actually, just like the gay man (Mr. Cunanan) whose shooting spree claimed the life of the famous designer Versace, nobody really knows what caused the gay guy (Mr. Mateen) to do HIS shooting spree.

    For example, most American guys, whether gay or straight, don’t get on the phone and claim they’re a card-carrying ISIS fan. So nobody really knows where Mateen was at.

    But both Christians and Muslims are tired of being told that its **their** fault. There’s NEVER going to be a Bible, or Koran, or “Pearl Of Great Price” (Mormon), or “Adi Granth” (Sikh), in which gay marriage is approved. Pro-gay folks have to stop exploiting the Orlando tragedy.

  • Probably because payday lenders, domestic abusers, and child abusers don’t do Pride Parades…

  • Now you are just going off on an irrelevant rant. Hatred inspires haters. Its as simple as that.

  • It’s just like the fact that Mormons and Muslims aren’t atheists, Ben. Christians, Mormons and Muslims all agree that theism is true and atheism is false.
    It’s a point of agreement, and it’s there to stay, no matter what other stuff we don’t agree on. So we just accept that we agree on that issue.

    Likewise with gay marriage. Most (not everyone, but a very clear majority) of the members of the three religions agree that gay marriage is wrong. So we just accept that we are agreed, allied, on that point.

  • Agreed on that point, and then you can all go back to killing each other.
    but thank you for pointing out that it isn’t about sincere religious belief at all.
    Not that I had the slightest doubt about it.

  • If “small Christian businesses” refers to the notorious Oregon bakers, remember that they got spanked in court for violating the privacy of the gay couple they refused to serve. Refusing to do business with someone when you run a public business is snarky enough but publishing their private information to social media to encourage others to mock them in public is just plain criminal. That’s the real reason that Mormons and Hallelujah Hypocrites leave themselves vulnerable; they presume a right to persecute in God’s name, confusing due process with their only holy war (jihad) mentality.

  • I think that being uncomfortable with public behaviour says more about the person who is uncomfortable than the other. I remember a sense of unease in seeing persons of colour for the first time or seeing adult men with hairy chests at the beach. That uncomfortable sensation is your head saying to you that they are not like me and I don’t want to associate with you. It is called judging or excluding based on your own bias.

  • The problem is, you think it’s love that you are demonstrating, and you say it right before the full panoply of lies, distortions, half truths, slanders, revilings, and all of the other things that get routinely said

    It’s not love when you say “love the sinner and hate the sin.” It’s narcissism.

  • There you go again, reviling and slandering. Butbyoubwouldnt be you, otherwise.

    The FBI says there is no evidence the man was a homosexual hating homosexual.

  • I don’t like to see a man and woman kissing in public and I don’t like guys to go shirtless on the streets. Some things are meant for privacy unless you go to a nude beach or a beach for the shirtless guys. Nothing wrong with that. What goes on privately though, is private and absolutely no one else’s concern.

  • It is not love when it is conditional and condescending. They can marry now so, you lost. It is over. Continuing on, about something that you already lost, is being a bad loser. That conversation is over. If your church believes in pointing out each others sins, then have at it. Go into your church and make sure they all know what they are doing wrong. Keep it there in your church, where it belongs. Because when you go out and tell it to strangers, who are not of your ilk, then you are inciting and creating chaos and hate. Nothing more. You are not “saving” anybody. Just creating hate and discontent. That is why the world is starting to look down on Christianity. Because of people like you and Sandy.

  • Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of awesome
    mystical power. We know this because they manage to be invisible and pink at
    the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is
    based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically
    know that they are invisible because we can’t see them.

  • Who in there right mind claim the responsibility for a sin God states is an abomination. Apparently the writer is very unfamiliar with God’s word and has like most Christians repeat worldly foolishness that is just not supported in the bible. Romans 1:32 addresses this kind of thinking and supporting homosexuals. We as Christians are commanded to give the gospel to all mankind but are in no way responsible for the devastation those that ignore God’s word and wind up with their lives taken through no fault of ours but rather those that performed and are fully responsible for said heinous act.

  • Exactly is the “we” you’re referring to……….brain washed intolerant liberals? Is this related to that “equality” claim liberals always tout but doesn’t include Christians because we won’t accept known propaganda?

  • Proof texting! The favorite game to excuse bigotry. Hey Stand, try this one on:

    It’s so revealing that regard for ‘spreading god’s message’ and ‘calling out the sin’ only extends to a very few items, like LBTG people, women’s full autonomy, and one or 2 others. I don’t recall seeing such organization and focus against payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence or child abuse.

  • Eph 5:11-13 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    2 Corinthians 6:14
    Be not unequally yoked with the infidels: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness

  • Well that was a fairly useless response. So you’re a hater too. OK. Whatever.

    You got your silly useless little dig. You can run off and annoy someone else. Judging by your other posts, you are not worth any further posts.

  • Eph 5:11-13 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    2 Corinthians 6:17
    Wherefore come out from among them, and separate yourselves, saith the Lord, and touch none unclean thing, and I will receive you.

  • You should go look in a mirror to see the intolerant one. I do however appreciate you not wasting my time by having to read any more of your propaganda.

  • The liars that said “we just want to be left alone” and now spend your time hating Christians that did nothing but disagree with your unscientific propaganda.

  • Bigoted fundie troll says what? I don’t care.

    Don’t like my posts. Don’t read them or better yet use the “block user” function. Otherwise eff off. You have nothing worth responding to.

  • “American Christians aren’t used to having to pay anything at all for what they believe.”

    Bigots presume they can discriminate with impunity Religious bigots think they are above the laws. Christians who believe denying goods and services to people in open commerce because God says its Ok to hate a certain class of people better learn to behave themselves. Otherwise they will suffer the consequences of their hateful actions. People who support such malicious behavior are immoral scum. Like every other bigot who wants their hate given color of law.

  • Sorry my answer was over your head. Try sticking with the subject matter if you even comprehend it.

  • “Liberal aren’t used to having to pay anything at all for what they believe.”

    Propagandists
    presume they can discriminate with impunity anti-religious bigots think they
    are above the laws. Liberals who believe denying goods and services
    to people in open commerce because they think its Ok to hate a certain
    faiths of people better learn to behave themselves. Otherwise they will
    suffer the consequences of their foolish actions. People who support
    such malicious behavior are immoral scum. Like every other bigot who
    wants their hate given color of law.

    See it reads much more accurately now don’t ya think?

  • Actually you claim is pure adulterated propaganda because there is plenty of evidence he was a homosexual you just choose to remain ignorant to that fact.

  • So you’re running from a very simple question? I can see why. It clearly illustrates your hypocrisy.

    You’ll keep deflecting for awhile, then you’ll go to some pathetic excuse to stop commenting here. But the fact you’ve so clearly demonstrated is that you have no response that doesn’t show that you’re simply wallowing in your homophobic bigotry.

  • So you think using that foolish liberal tactic is going to work? Perhaps those like you have severe untreated ADD. Now can you even identify the subject matter in the article?

  • You must be getting winded from running so hard. You’ve tried insults, arrogance, and now political labeling. But still, the question remains unanswered while your hypocrisy overshadows all your games. Dang, homophobic bigotry is hard.

  • Na just to intelligent to get pulled into foolish unfounded claims. So as to set homosexuals straight I am a sinner saved by grace and unlike homosexuals I don’t attempt to justify my sins by using other unrequited sins to justify what is still called an abomination. Now do you have any REAL science that states homosexuality is in any way of a natural occurrence in nature. We know it does happen in nature but still there is no science that states it’s in any way natural or of nature. Dang anti-Christian bigots spewing unfounded propaganda on a Christian site eh?

  • One of the definitions of a fundamentalist

    : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

    : strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs

    So yes sodomites/atheists are most definitely fundamentalists and prove that every day invading Christian sites with militant homosexual propaganda with foolishness like your false doctrine “equality”.

  • Ah, another avoidance tactic. Yet the hypocrisy issue hovers over it. Anyone would struggle to address their homophobic bigotry. Clearly you are no exception.

  • And now you move onto Plan G, L, R? But still, no answer to a very simple and clear question. To avoid any confusion, here it is again:

    “It’s so revealing that regard for ‘spreading god’s message’ and ‘calling out the sin’ only extends to a very few items, like LBTG people, women’s full autonomy, and one or 2 others. I don’t recall seeing such organization and focus against payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence or child abuse.”

  • C’mon Stand, you claim to be so brave. Answer my question:

    “It’s so revealing that regard for ‘spreading god’s message’ and ‘calling out the sin’ only extends to a very few items, like LBTG people, women’s full autonomy, and one or 2 others. I don’t recall seeing such organization and focus against payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence or child abuse.”

  • I Have one question for you and please be honest if it is at all possible……..why do you homosexuals/atheists troll Christian sites?

  • Funny how homosexuals/atheists come to Christian sites to attempt bully and intimidate Christians and justify your wickedness.

  • No. I was a Unitarian. Before that I was UCC. We were the liberal ones you called heretics because we believed in ways you didn’t.

    So don’t drop your history of bigotry on me and mine in some orgy of self-flagellation finger-pointing..

  • I believe I already did but let me educate you once again. I’m a sinner saved by grace and never as atheists/homosexual do attempt to justify one sin with another sin. So the fact is homosexuality, rape , adultery and murder all deserve the same consequence because of the gravity of that particular wickedness. So explain why you’re attempting to justify one wickedness over another wickedness? Now most intelligent people don’t support payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence or child abuse. As for those that deal with payday lenders usurious interest rates they deserve what they got themselves into dealing with known dishonesty and those that are responsible for domestic violence should be caned as they do in Singapore and child abusers deserve the death penalty. But knowing these things you whine about can be traced directly back to liberals and your laws you should accept the responsibility for your own actions, BTW all these things you mention are spoken against n the bible and are dealt with severely. So do you have any more blockish claims?

  • Actually, honey,, you are dead wrong. I was saying that I thought he was another h-h-h, and I still think he is. They are some of the worst slime that treads the earth.

    However, the FBI says otherwise. So take it Up with them

  • Let me repeat myself…..I believe I already did but let me educate you once again. I’m a sinner
    saved by grace and never as atheists/homosexual do attempt to justify
    one sin with another sin. So the fact is homosexuality, rape , adultery
    and murder all deserve the same consequence because of the gravity of
    that particular wickedness. So explain why you’re attempting to justify
    one wickedness over another wickedness? Now most intelligent people
    don’t support payday lenders usurious interest rates, domestic violence
    or child abuse. As for those that deal with payday lenders usurious
    interest rates they deserve what they got themselves into dealing with
    known dishonesty and those that are responsible for domestic violence
    should be caned as they do in Singapore and child abusers deserve the
    death penalty. But knowing these things you whine about can be traced
    directly back to liberals and your laws you should accept the
    responsibility for your own actions, BTW all these things you mention
    are spoken against n the bible and are dealt with severely. So do you
    have any more blockish claims?

  • Funny how some Christians think that everything is about them. This is a site about religion, not about you.

    Funny how some Christians misuse the democratic process, raise piles of money, tell all kinds of lies, and try to incite both hatred and pretend victimization in an attempt to bully and intimidate gay people.

  • Yeah and apparently all you atheists/homosexuals aren’t intelligent to speak for yourselves but instead use the gang mentality. BTW I’ve answered you blockish question several times if you bothered to read the entire thread but that would’ve given you way to much credit for being intelligent.

  • What part of my answer didn’t you comprehend and is there an adult around to explain it to you? BTW you need to leave your parents basement to find said adult.

  • So tell us how many lies has obama and Billary got caught in in the last week alone? I wouldn’t waste my time bullying and intimidating you homosexuals because that all you do here and on other Christian that allow your wickedness and false accusations to be posted. The fact is all liberals of today have little to no credibility or integrity.

  • Why yes he was and the liberals actually admitted to sanitizing that fact from the public.

  • I find it extremely disturbing that the unscientific rhetoric, propaganda, false accusations, bullying and intimidation is completely unfettered by homosexuals and atheists and is allowed on a supposedly Christian site.

  • Poor widdle Christian. Always so bullied, even with your God at your back. Aren’t you being persecuted for Jesus? doesn’t it make you really, really special?

  • Poor baby.

    But it isn’t a Christian site. It’s a site about religion, not YOUR religion.

  • It’s sad how homosexual/atheists blame others for the problems you created all by yourselves. So are you admitting homosexual/atheists are weak minded individuals?

  • You consider adultery and payday loan rates to be a sin? Then put gay marriage in there too, as per the Bible. (Not bigotry, just Bible.)

  • Well, you could always repeal the Bill Of Rights. That’s what you gay-marriage advocates really want to do, ain’t it?

  • You should learn to read because it’sall about the Christian faith but then again you and honesty have absolutely nothing in common.

  • Actually you have tried and failed miserably…..how does it feel to be blockish all the time?

  • I don’t waste my time believing such blockish propaganda the one and only thing homosexuals/atheists are proficient at…..oh wait……

  • The FBI already admitted that the government tied their hands and the AG already admitted that she sanitized the recorded phone calls from the homosexual terrorist.

  • Or it’s called “two guys are deliberately putting their anti-God mess in other people’s faces (and that potentially includes children) in order to attract attention and also try to intimidate people of faith.”

    Time to speak out against that kind of stuff !!

  • Said the man who thinks they have a right to harm anyone they want because, “God says it’s OK”. You don’t understand what your rights are and mistake privilege for them.

  • So I see you had a lot in common with the mass murderer. Manteen was doing just as you demand now.

    Unlike being an internet curmudgeon, he decided his views were best expressed according to the 2ND Amendment.

  • Nobody said anything about harming anybody. But homosexual behavior and gay marriage are DEFINITELY harmful (spiritual and emotional damage and enslavement) to the individuals involved. Write that down.

    It also erodes and corrodes the gender-complementary basis of family and community, so this is a public harm, not just private. Gay marriage is wrong for America.

  • Yeah you did. You support discrimination under the pretense of religious belief. Discrimination is a form of malicious and deliberate harm. There is no harm in homosexuality. There is harm in deliberately targeting people for hate and malice.

    Again, you share the same views as a mass murderer. I bet you feel some pride in that.

  • Never said that. But it is clear you are engaging in an argument which only makes sense in your head. You have the same 1st amendment right to discriminate and harm others for your religious beliefs as I do to perform human sacrifice on you and your loved ones.

    Why do you oppose my first amendment rights to murder you in the name of my dark lord Cthulhu?

  • Nope. Progressives just want the alleged conservatives to actually live by the Bill of Rights, and not always try to turn them into a Bill of Wrongs.

  • You are happy with discriminating against consenting-adult bigamists, polygamists, group gigs, and sterilized daddy-daughter adult marriages.

    So you ARE comfortable with government discrimination against various marital arrangements and sexual behaviors. Otherwise your community values are nothing but “Anything Goes.”

    Therefore, it is okay to discriminate against gay marriage and its harms as well.

  • Only if you can make an honest claim there are no rational and secular purposes behind banning those unions. But you can’t. BTW the last one evidently is not illegal if it’s a stepfather. Google “Soon Yi Previn” 🙂

    The slippery slope isn’t greased as well as you thought. It’s kind of rocky and even leveled. Thank you for demonstrating why people like yourself never got the real issues which were in play in the courts at the time.

    It’s why your complaints about their decision is just so much sour grapes ignorant blather. You guys never make the relevant arguments.

  • Do you have a First Amendment right to murder anybody? You’re not another gay shooter are you?

  • Lol I have as much right to commit murder in the name of my faith as you do to discriminate.

  • Of course such a rational claim exists already. It’s based on the millenia-strong, formerly planet-wide marital standard of male-female gender complementarity.

    Men and women are NOT interchangable.. Neither gender is disposable, they are BOTH unique and indispensable marital complements. It’s not even a marriage if either gender is missing.

    Gay guys who oppose gay marriage (yes they exist), usually mention this aspect, especially re marital childrearing. It’s rational and secular.

  • But you discriminate too — you happily keep quiet while the government discriminates against other consenting-adult relationships.

  • Well, including reality.
    Articles on Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Atheists, Hindus and Mormons.
    But other than them, sure no one at all.

  • Not secular or rational. You are begging the question. Just saying “because” for spurious reasons. People who oppose gay marriage use this reason because it is vague nonsense and more socially acceptable than saying “I hate the gay”. Which is their more honest motivation.

    Procreation is not necessary for marriage. Marriage is not necessary for procreation. So whatever differences you see between genders on this subject is just pure cultural constructed nonsense.

  • Not discrimination if I have unprejudiced, rational and secular reasons for a ban. You have none of the above. Your line of argument is really brain dead.

  • Nobody said procreation was necessary for marriage. Rather, complementary male and female gender together is NOT interchangable, not disposable, either in the marriage relationship itself (with no kids), or in the marital child-rearing task.

    Male-female gender complementarity is NOT the same as same-sex mirror-image mess. The MFGC marital standard is **proven** to work for thousands of years, from the most primitive nations to the most advanced. Go with what really works, dude.

  • Yes it’s a shame you’re so easily confused when other articles that concern Christians are actually posted on a Christian site.

  • You are begging the question. Marriage is between men and women because they are men and women who are married. Circular and bereft of a reason. Marriage for thousands of years went through numerous changes. As for working, every typed marriage works. Until it doesn’t for some people. None of that is an argument against gay marriage. Ben can easily say how his marriage and many others work whether you like it or not.

  • Consider what Jesus said about humility. Consider what he said about compassion. Consider what he said about judging others. Consider what he said about throwing stones. Consider how often, and how emphatically, Jesus talked about these things. These are Jesus’s words, not mine.

  • I agree, please tell this to the UMCs that still feel that our LBGT sisters and brothers are “sinners,” and therefore none can be ordained clergy, nor can anyone who is LBGT marry the person whom they love in one of the regressive UMCs.

  • On this site’s “About” page, the last paragraph of its “Mission” section says:

    “RNS does not endorse or promote any particular religion, creed or set of beliefs or non-beliefs. We are a secular organization committed to an ongoing conversation about the role of religion in public life.”

    No big deal; you didn’t know, and now you do. It’s “about the role of religion in public life.”

  • Consider what He said in His word……

    Matt 4:4
    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    2 Tim 3:16 – 17
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be absolute, being made perfect unto all good works

    2 Thess 3:6-7 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

    Eph 5:11-13 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    2 Corinthians 6:17
    Wherefore come out from among them, and separate yourselves, saith the Lord, and touch none unclean thing, and I will receive you.

    1 Timothy 6:5
    Froward disputations of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, which think that gain is godliness: from such separate thyself.

    2 Corinthians 6:14
    Be not unequally yoked with the infidels: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

  • So rather than follow the bible you find a church that agrees with worldly wicked unbiblical morals and values. Gottcha.

  • You may feel intimidated with deliberate kissing but I would guess it was done in response to actions on your part interpreted negatively by a gay couple. (The old fight or flight mechanism.) Or from being present in ‘safe’ gay areas or at a Pride Parade. Or that you have taken one or two incidents and made a mountain out of a molehill. Nothing needs to be spoken up against – regardless of your religious beliefs. In fact, I believe that is our duty to welcome all within the doors of a church ‘with open hearts’ and without any qualifiers. And most certainly realize that scripturally, we are required to follow the law set out by governing authorities. The first amendment protects religious beliefs so you can believe whatever you want but that has limits. People do lots of different things that I find repulsive, disagreeable or offensive – in fact so many that if I couldn’t get past how I feel, I wouldn’t like most of humanity 🙂 So I have learned to just get over it and accept (or try to accept) people for who they are. After all, I am a pretty flawed human being myself. Nor am I exalted to a position of being the official spokesperson of the Christian church. But I am called to love my fellow man.

  • Thank you, Dr. Rees, for some food for thought. Your article, unfortunately, seems to have attracted a lot of neuroses and hang-ups. Offended by people kissing and nudity? Puritanism has yet to die in this country, it seems.

  • Oh, doc. Couldn’t possibly be because we are just living our lives the way heterosexuals live theirs? To intimidate people of faith? for people with god on your side, you sure are easy to intimidate.

  • When you take the same stand against people who reject the entirety of Christian belief– most of the world– rather than just gay people living their lives, perhaps you might have a point.

  • What a whiny crock! Ever hear of Islamism? They hate America because we enjoy freedom, and because we increasingly support LGBT rights. Self-flagellating liberals didn’t kill our sisters and brothers in Orlando, Radical Islam did. Wake up! Look at the big picture.

  • Consider what the bible states rather than you expressing your erroneous opinion and misquoting the bible about judging. It’s exposes you as the faux christian you present yourself to be.

    1 Cor 6:1-11 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!a 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Leviticus 19:15 15 ¶ Ye shall not do unjustly in judgment: Thou shalt not favor the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty, but thou shalt judge thy neighbor justly.

    1 Cor 2:11-16 Judge all things
    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    1 Corinthians 2:14-16 Judge all things (We have the mind of Christ)
    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    2 Cor 11:1-4 False Preachers
    1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Eph 5:11 Works of Darkness
    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Luke 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you: a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom: for with what measure ye mete, with the same shall men mete to you again.

  • Gee if you’d read a little farther you’d have known this FACT…

    The Religious News Service was founded by journalist Louis Minsky
    (1909-1957), as an independent, non-profit affiliate of the National
    Conference of Christians and Jews. From the start, it was dedicated to
    providing fair, balanced, non-sectarian news about religion to the
    secular and religious press.

    Now what do these two RELIGIONS have in common…..DUH>>>>>>>>

    The next thing you’ll do is claim to be a Christian eh 😉

  • And yes you claim to be a baptist. So exactly what kind of baptist are you…….secular or biblical? They way you talk the former fits.

  • Yes, what you cited is in the “History” section of RNS’s “About” page, whereas what I cited is in the “Mission” section of that page. But nowhere does it even imply that RNS is a “Christian site”. The “supposedly” in your original post may have been your supposition, but it is not supported by the facts. If you don’t care to hear that from me, I suggest you ask the RNS staff yourself.

    Please note that I have been respectful in my replies to you — no insults, no hostilities, no dismissiveness, no contempt, no “DUH”, no “The next thing you’ll do is” — whereas you have so far avoided treating me with the basic social respect I have shown you. I don’t see how such unequal treatment between equals contributes to “an ongoing conversation about the role of religion in public life”.

    We have both made our beliefs, values, and moral character eminently clear, and I’ve run out of cheeks to turn. There’s nothing else I can do or say except “Block” you.

  • You’re claiming that people who commit suicide are “weak minded”? How lovely. If this is what standing for Christ means, no wonder so many want no part of it.

  • How many times does Ben have to spell it out for you? This is not a Christian website. It is a website about religiously-oriented news. There are articles on here about many non-Christian religions, religions that consider themselves Christians but you might not, and non-religious groups like atheists. You are not the only religion in the world.

  • Do you object to seeing a straight couple kissing on TV (as the author recounted, not in public)? If it’s across the board then fine. Otherwise the label gains a measure of accuracy.

  • As long as we’re speculating, if the Orlando shooter was in fact gay or bisexual, there’s some possible similarities between the Orlando and Versace murders. Versace’s killer was a serial murderer who killed other gay or bisexual men, some of whom he had relationships with. He also was a psychopath and raised in a devoutly Catholic home. In both cases, the killers’ religious beliefs, or those to which they were exposed, may have led to internalized self-hatred.

  • As a straight male, I–like 99% of all straight males, I assume–find the thought of homosexual attraction repulsive. I’m not saying gay men are repulsive, per se. But I recoil at the thought of personally engaging in that behavior. It’s the way God made me. I don’t wish to deny gay men the right to behave that way, but I prefer not to see it in public.

    There are other behaviors that I prefer to avoid in public: smoking, swearing, violence, defecating! I don’t think any of these are called “phobias.” A phobia is an extreme or unreasonable fear or aversion to something.

    I am not “afraid” of homosexuals (unless they tried to hit on me, perhaps!) and my preferences do not seem to be unreasonable. Thus, I dislike having blanket labels applied.

  • Obviously you’re also reading impaired. My question is why libtards just can’t be honest about things?

  • Funny that I found that quote on the exact same page isn’t it? Oh please block me because your all mouth and propaganda and I’ve heard enough of that garbage to last 2 life times……..how sad that’s all you have huh?

  • Please tell me what I’m getting wrong. Please tell me why there are non-Christian articles on RNS — at least two today. While you’re at it, you can explain why you presume to know a single thing about my political views.

  • This sounds a little too much like “collective responsibility.” I prefer to be assessed by my own specific words and acts, not the collective and diverse words and acts of my fellow human beinhgs

  • Do you really think there are no non-Christian articles on Christian sites? Your liberal mind’s needle is stuck. BTW the only one that believe the foolishness you libtards come up with is other libtards.

  • Read Matt 23 and maybe you’ll get an education on how Christ Himself handled hypocrites.

  • Robert A Reese obviously you see nothing in common with the USA and Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Jude 1:

    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, which in like manner as they did, committed fornication, and followed strange flesh, are set forth for an example, and suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
    8 Likewise notwithstanding these sleepers also defile the flesh, and despise government, and speak evil of them that are in authority.

  • Ah. I know you.

    You are a testament to your creed.

    Why, pray tell, is my language “foolish?”

  • ” …I sincerely commend those Mormons who have taken (and continue to take) a stand against homosexual marriage and homosexual behavior. ”

    Their achievements have been very limited, probably because they are ‘standing in the way of sinners’, as they assume, and they shouldn’t be……Psalm 1:1

    And they shouldn’t be judging unbelievers according to 1Cor 5:12. Christians are not to judge what unbelievers do. They will be judged by God himself.

    It should be pointed out here that unbelievers are entitled to and will receive blessings in all kinds of ways.

  • ” …nobody really knows what caused the gay guy (Mr. Mateen) to do HIS shooting spree. ”

    In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do these things because they have not known the Father or Me. But I have told you these things so that when their hour comes, you will remember that I told you about them………..Jesus

  • ” Christians will have to either shut up, or else PAY a big price like the Mormons paid. Some small Christian businesses and families have already found this out. Many more Christians will find out SOON. ”

    None of the above is necessary.

    Everyone everywhere should strive to seek out new and better ways of accepting and treating LGBTs.

    This will be needed —
    Conversation and attitudes that are seasoned with grace and salt. To speak with grace means to say what is wholesome, fitting, kind, sensitive, purposeful, complementary, gentle, loving, and thoughtful.

    Throw some of these fruits of the spirit in —
    Love
    Joy
    Peace
    Forbearance
    Kindness
    Goodness
    Gentleness

    Consider these verses —
    1. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another….Romans 14:13

    2. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God…..Romans 15:7

    3. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing or tolerating with one another in love….Ephesians 4:2

    4. …live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble…1 Peter 3:8

    5. Be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone…Titus 3:2

    6. Stay out of the seat of the scornful.

    7. Christianity ‘without’ good, quality works and deeds, with all kinds of loving attitudes, won’t amount to a hill of beans in the future…..James 2:26

    And then this can take place —
    …you must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other……..Mark 9:50

  • ” …worldly wicked unbiblical morals and values. ”

    It’s not as bad as all that and I think you will slowly realize that as time goes on.

    Here’s something to always remember about what Paul said of his own writings and it probably applies to other scripture as well —

    1. …our knowledge is partial and incomplete
    2. …we see things imperfectly…
    3. …All that I know is partial and incomplete…
    (1 Corinthians 13:9,12)

    Paul is very very smart, but he was truthful when he said ‘all that I know is partial and incomplete’.

    With God’s help, we’ll all be able to create new and better attitudes to express towards one another that will be greater than many of his old proclamations.

  • Jesus is a terrible role model for talking about hypocrisy. This is someone whose top commandment was to love your neighbor, yet he went around insulting other people every chance he got. Anyway, what did I say that was hypocritical?

  • You poor baby. I feel sorry that the educational (homeschool?) system has failed you so badly. Otherwise, you’d be able to look at a website like RNS and see that it covers news from all religions, not just Christianity. And I’m not a “liberal.”

  • But that’s all those like you comprehend. So let’s get this straight you think I’m required to accept your immoral values but when I continually point that fact your immoral codes are unacceptable resume libtard bullying tactics. Now did I miss anything?

  • That’s the problem with faux Christians like you. you repeat the first deception that was told by the serpent in the garden….God didn’t really mean that.

  • If you don’t know there’s nothing I can say to help you.

    Ephesians 5:4
    4 Neither filthiness, neither foolish talking, neither jesting, which are things not comely, but rather giving of thanks.

    Colossians 3:8-10
    8 But now put ye away even all these things, wrath, anger, maliciousness, cursed speaking, filthy speaking, out of your mouth.

    2 Timothy 2:16
    16 Stay profane, and vain babblings: for they shall increase unto more ungodliness.

  • At least the author is articulate and interesting in his writing! When I first read the title, I thought ‘Oh boy, what a nut job.” Turns out my initial impression was acccurate, but he wasn’t as silly as I thought he would be.

  • I haven’t asked, suggested or required you to accept any values. You must be speaking to someone else.

  • I agree with what Dr. Rees says about guns. Other than that, I refuse to buy into the ridiculousness that I am responsible for any murder.

  • LOL, yourself. It was a hate crime as it turns out, motivated by the killer’s faith-based hatred for all things LGBT. Nice try at deflection, but you’re short and late on that one.

  • Lol! Why are you so eager to label it a hate crime and blame whole institutions? What good will you get from that?

  • Change in attitudes toward bigotry as “religion.” Religionists love to shame others, well shame on the bigots who drove the killer to mass murder in Orlando.

  • Yes! Take away responsibility from the killer. I love the way your “philanthropist” logic works.

    Seems like you have an anti religion agenda lol

  • The killer bears responsibility for the horrific bloodshed but folks like you made him what he was with your extremist homophobia. “Christians” like you would have gladly held the coats of the mob who stoned the Christian Martyr St. Stephen to death for declaring that he saw Christ on the right hand of God in the Heavens, especially since you no doubt buy into the 3-in-1 theory, which would make Stephen wrong.

  • I retract both conclusions. I went back and read a lot of your remarks. You are all over the map in your smart “Alec” remarks. I think you still hang to the right, as in the religious right, in your values, but your little snips and snarks make that hard to pin down. But your remarks are usually entertaining.

  • Lol! I am not all over the map, hehehe. I have never changed my stance on anything and have stood by my views, always. Some people cannot comprehend that someone with different views to the “left” “right” exists.

    I respect the fact that you admit to making a mistake.

  • Jesting isn’t okay? Your god sounds way too f@*%ing uptight.

    But, seriously: how are you going to teach me anything if I have to already know it before you’ll teach me? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of teaching me?

  • More liberal clap-trap. “We” (not just LDS but anyone of a religious bent that asserts that to indulge in homosexual behavior is contrary to what the Lord has stridently forbidden) are no more responsible for the actions of a lone nut with a firearm (a Muslim with ties to ISIL) than are all firearm owners, or Muslims in general (most I know are quite peaceful and law-abiding). This, of course, assumes, that along with all the other tragic and inexplicable acts that have happened this summer thus far (to wit, shootings of police officers in Dallas TX and Baton Rouge LA) are the acts of the ‘lone nut with a gun’, ala Lee Harvey Oswald. I believe, however,as many suspect of Oswald, either a conspiracy and especially a “false flag” operation(s) have happened. Since the perps are quite dead, we’ll never know.

    I no more condone this massacre of innocent men in a gay nightclub than I would, say, if a gay man, completely off his rocker, went into an evangelical church or an LDS ward meetinghouse full of worshipers and started shooting the place up. Either is mass murder regardless of perp(s) and/or victim(s). However, what is sad is that so many un-Constitutional gun laws, especially ‘gun-free’ zones, have effectively disarmed civilians and left them vulnerable to this sort of tragedy. Even these nut cases can figure that much out, and we can only expect of law enforcement to respond in minutes when seconds count.

    Robert “Bob” Dole, though I thought 20 years to be one of the lamest Presidential candidates ever, considering whom he lost badly to, did have a simple but profound gem: “The main cause of crime is…CRIMINALS!”.

  • Yes you’re both offensive and childish as all that hold your “entitlement mentality”.

  • You didn’t answer my question.

    If I need to already know that which you are teaching in order for you to teach me it, why would I need to learn it from you? That is equivalent to refusing to teach someone algebra until they know how to do algebra.

    But, enough of that. I get the feeling education isn’t your strong point.

    What I really want to know is: why should I trust that your book is good guide for manners, including the humourless judgements your god has decreed that you pass on me?

  • You’d first have to know what manners and morals were before you could be taught anything of relevance.

    In your case the bible speaks of your problem

    Matthew 15:18
    But those things which proceed out of the mouth, come from the heart, and they defile the man.

    Jeremiah 17:9
    The heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can know it?

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