News Revelations

Atheist sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia

Deera Square is a public space in central Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, in which public executions occur, usually by beheading. It is sometimes known as Justice Square or Chop Chop Square. Photo courtesy of Creative Commons

(RNS) Saudi Arabia has reportedly condemned a man to death for atheism.

The man, Ahmad Al-Shamri, lost two appeals before the ruling by the Saudi Supreme Court earlier this week. He was initially arrested in 2014 and charged with atheism and blasphemy, both punishable by execution, after denouncing the Prophet Muhammad in videos he uploaded to social media, according to the Independent newspaper, which cited local media reports.

Al-Shamri is only the latest atheist condemned by the Saudi government. In 2013, blogger Raif Badawi was sentenced to 1,000 lashes, 10 years in prison and a fine for “insulting Islam.” His lawyer was also jailed for what the Saudi government called “making international organizations hostile to the kingdom.”

Badawi received the first 50 of his lashes in 2015, setting off an international uproar.

Other cases in the kingdom include a Turkish man sentenced to death for “swearing at God,” a high school teacher sentenced to prison and 750 lashes for discussing Christianity and Judaism with students, and a Yemeni man who was sentenced to 21 years in prison for insulting Islam on Facebook.

Saudi Arabia, where the official religion is Sunni Islam, has some of the harshest blasphemy laws in the world, according to the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom. It lists Saudi Arabia as a “country of particular concern,” its highest ranking for transgressors of religious freedom, which the country has held since 2006.

In 2014, Saudi Arabia’s leader, King Abdullah, issued a royal decree that termed atheists “terrorists” in an attempt to crack down on dissent. Yet a year later, the United Nations placed the country on its human rights council, prompting outrage.

“Saudi Arabia is trying to silence and lock away anyone who doesn’t toe the official line or dares to express an independent view on politics, religion, or human rights,” Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch, said in its most recent report on the country.

 

About the author

Kimberly Winston

Kimberly Winston is a freelance religion reporter based in the San Francisco Bay Area.

195 Comments

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  • But I don’t support “Be tolerant…of the intolerant.”
    This is all so confusing… I’m left thinking I’m right.

  • From ON ATHEISM by Francis Bacon:

    The Scripture saith, The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God; it is not said, The fool hath thought in his heart; so as he rather saith it, by rote to himself, as that he would have, than that he can thoroughly believe it, or be persuaded of it. For none deny, there is a God, but those, for whom it maketh that there were no God. It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip, than in the heart of man, than by this; that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted in it, within themselves, and would be glad to be strengthened, by the consent of others. Nay more, you shall have atheists strive to get disciples, as it fareth with other sects. And, which is most of all, you shall have of them, that will suffer for atheism, and not recant; whereas if they did truly think, that there were no such thing as God, why should they trouble themselves?

  • Dang you, Kimberly Winston, you’re going to make Alabamans upset they didn’t think of it first.

  • I’m sure there are tons of militant Christians who’ll rub their hands with glee after reading this story. “See?” they’ll say. “Those horrible Muslim-types want to kill atheists! And to think all those Left-wing atheist types love all those Muslims and are in league with them. Hah! We Christians have got them all beat!” 

    Which leaves aside the problem that there are plenty of Christians who’d love nothing more than to get a crack at atheists themselves! Many of them think there is no “freedom from religion” in the US and that it’s possible, and fully legal, to compel atheists to believe. Some of them feel free to harass atheists, and a few (e.g. Ted Shoebat) want atheism outlawed in the US and want all atheists rounded up and executed. 

    So all those Christians are free to gloat about being “above” the sort of militant atheist-hatred they might decry in the Muslim Saudis … but the seeds of the same sentiment live at the very heart of their own religion. Really, they’re not that much different. They’re just slightly more circumspect about their hatred of atheists than the Saudis are, that’s all. 

  • Bacon clearly didn’t understand the difference between an atheist and an antitheist. Do you?
    He also didn’t understand that the average atheist just disbelieves in one less god than the average theist, and or exactly the same reasons. Do you?

  • I don’t know anyone on the left, whatever the hell that means, who is tolerant of the intolerant. In fact, its the opposite: those on the right want their intolerance to be tolerated.

  • His being an atheist is not as important as his crime of blasphemy. Regardless of whether he is an atheist, Muslim, ex-Muslim or Christian all that matters is he talked against Allah, the prophet or Islam.

  • This had nothing to do with the Left or even America.The Saudi prisoner is guilty of blasphemy. Sadly, we include the Saudis as friends and allies.

    We are all intolerant in some respects and most of us here are reasonably tolerant if others.

  • Today’s Human History quiz:

    _________________ confidently told total strangers about themselves and their character.

    Hint #1: It wasn’t complimentary.
    Hint #2: There just might be more than one correct answer.

  • True example of what happens when religion and government gets mixed…this is what many in the religious right would have here in the US…I’m sure they also would execute atheists if they could get their way.

    Saudi Arabia is truly a hideous society, yet we have chosen them as allies against the also extreme, but probably, mildly better Iranians. I doubt the god of Abraham is real, but if he is…old testament, Christians, Islam…this God must answer for these atrocities.

  • No Christian in my entire walk of faith of over 40 years has ever suggested that atheists be put to death. It goes against the very precept of interceding for the lost. Any hyperbolic argument, or one from a handful of extreme examples of acts or statements by nutbars can adequately demonstrate Christian inclination in this regard. From a slightly different angle, I have seen so called Christians advocate for the death of homosexuals. This is wholly inconsistent with the Gospel. One can disagree with the concept that homosexuality is natural, normal, and consistent with the Christian life, but one cannot legitimately as a Christian call for the death, persecution, or oppression of homosexuals. It is my understanding that all of us require self examination and are in no position to elevate ourselves one above another, even as we disagree over what constitutes the appropriately lived life.

  • The death sentence imposed on Ahmad Al-Shamri and other harsh punishments do more harm to Islam than any number of unbelievers. Nothing is more effective in trashing the reputation of religion than the excesses, cruelties and hypocrisy of the believers.

    This is not just a problem for Islam or just for religion. The cruelties of Israelis towards Palestinians damage Judaism and the Jewish state. Child sex abuse has trashed the reputation and the moral authority of the Catholic Church and has damaged other churches. The Soviet Union fell, partly because of its oppressive culture. The moral authority of the United States and western culture more generally has been undercut by its disregard of the poor.

    “Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.” This quotation from Proverbs 14:34 applies to nations, religions and civilisations.

  • If you don’t want to be look at like animals and treated like animals then stop acting like animals.

  • An atheist, who rejects religious fairy tales, would be the only sane person in the country.

  • ” In fact, its the opposite: those on the right want their intolerance to be tolerated,” . . . and celebrated, and enshrined into law.

  • Is Allah so fragile that he can’t take a few words of criticism? When I believe in something, my beliefs are strong enough to withstand criticism

  • I certainly agree that, “nothing is more effective in trashing the reputation of religion than the excesses, cruelties and hypocrisy of the believers,” but please enlighten me, Mglass: How your contention that “the moral aughority of the United States and western culture more generally has been undercut by its disregard of the poor,” is in ANY WAY comparable to Saudi Arabia’s putting a man to death for athiesm? They even jailed the man’s lawyer! Now, I’m no big fan of lawyers, but isn’t that just a tad extreme?!

  • ” . . . this is what many in the religious right would have here in the US…I’m
    sure they also would execute atheists if they could get their way.”

    Wow, what an outlandish statement! On what do you base such a conclusion about ANY group of American people here in 21st century?

    There has NEVER been any discussion of such an action here that I’m aware of! The Spanish Inquisition ended hundreds of years ago, and that horrendous movement wasn’t targetung athiests! They went after Jews who they suspected were maintaining a fascade of nominal Catholicism, while practicing Judiasm in secret!

    Our friend Mglass above states that, “Nothing is more effective in trashing the reputation of religion than the excesses, cruelties and hypocrisy of the believers.” I think we could add to that line up, “hatred for an American Christian group that someone happens to disagree with politically!

  • Please don’t slander animals. Animals don’t kill anyone for being an atheist.

    Well, one animal does.

  • Well, Edward, some of the posters here do regularly call for the deaths of gay people. Though they will backtrack on it when called out.

    But a number of other posters here will merely claim that we are enemies of God, evil, fascists, and threats to marriage, family, children, Morality, faith, freedom and western civilization.

    That they do not explicitly call for our deaths after this vile behavior is merely a distinction without a difference.

  • If the US became a theocracy or a “Christian Nation” as some desire, the same incentives to defend the faith like the Saudi’s do…would require punitive action again non-believers. It would reasonably become treason to damage the national religion if theology is entwined with the state and justifies the state’s existence

    A reasonable amount of Google searches shows pastors, preacher’s and others who demand death for non-believers and other undesirables, homosexuals, etc. even in the US. Many think the Bible is the inerrant word of God, if that is true, this from Luke becomes a necessity…

    Luke 19:11-27 Jesus says…
    “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

  • The average Muslim don’t support executing atheists either though that is what you get when you have over the top theocracies as seen by the Inquisition etc. I have seen Christians, not a trivial number alone, strongly denounce atheists as immoral reprobates though & at some point that sort of thing is going to cause trouble. Your overall view of “the Gospel” is appreciated.

  • “Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

    – Leviticus 24:10–16

  • The gospels pushed that to the next world (see, e.g., Mark 3:29 and “eternal damnation”).

  • Exactly. I was going to point out that Jesus himself talked of the killing of Atheists. The main reasons I don’t have to fear for my life here in the US is the influence of Enlightenment values and the fact that Christians have less control here in the US than Muslims do in Saudi Arabia.

  • Saudi law is the business of the Saudis, and nobody else.
    To be entitled to have one’s opinion heard, one must “have standing” — one must be a citizen or subject of the political entity, and be affected by the law.
    If Australia, for example, levied a tax on left-handed Presbyterians, and I had an opinion of that tax, I would not be entitled to have that opinion heard — I am not an Australian citizen, I am not left-handed, and I am not Presbyterian.
    Unless and until the parties running off at the mouth about Saudi law become Saudi subjects, let them be silent.

  • Huh? I googled this, and it shows the Parable of the Ten Minas? I am no bible scholar (HA!); only read in once and find more truth in any one of Shakespeare’s plays than the whole bible, but I do not think Jesus ever said this.

  • The vast majority of scholars think that Jesus is referring to himself as the king in this parable. The fact that you can take a vote on what the Bible says and have disagreement is a Good indication that you are correct about the amount of truth to be found therein.

  • Allah is only as fragile as his staunchest believers. Same with the Christian god.

    Such delicate snowflakes they all are!

  • that’s from a parable … seems to me a lesson about what will happen at the end of days (in Jesus’ view, maybe sometime soon)

  • Whew !! That makes it all better then! Thought for a minute my blasphemy would have to stop now…

    … So my disbelief goes on…until a death-bed conversion or couple of Hail Mary’s after Catholic confession…then it’s off to the Pearly Gates for me…I will even take a short stint in Purgatory if the Catholics are right !!

  • Telling people to shut up is never a good policy, which is, in effect, what your little rule, that you have just made up, is.
    First they came for the Atheist and I said nothing . . . etc,..

  • Nuking Saudis Arabia would be a completely appropriate response to this! There is some levels of intolerant religious fascism that need IMMEDIATE ERADICATION OFF THE PLANET! A MUSLIM-BASED STATE like Saudi Arabia is ONE OF THEM!

  • I think that point should be that all countries fail, in their own way, not that they are equally bad. America is bad news in many way but would much prefer to live there than Saudi.

  • As sad as it is for this atheist….he will soon learn that Christ is real. He will soon be a believer.

  • It’s in verse 27. This parable has always struck me as shocking in its apparent depiction of intolerance, mercilessness, and cruelty as exemplary of godly, virtuous, righteous behavior for the Christian elect.

    Luke 19:12-27 (NIV):

    12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
    14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
    15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
    16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
    17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
    18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
    19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
    20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
    22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
    24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
    25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
    26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

  • Until recently – and still on the books in some states – an atheist couldn’t hold elective office. So if more power gets into the hands of conservation Christians, the atheists and non-Christians would at the very least face discrimination. Look at the past when the Church wielded more power.

  • Heeding the howling of the canaille is even worse policy.
    Having said that, what standing have you to express an opinion as to my view that supersedes my standing to express that view?

  • That should read “… one god fewer …” rather than “… one god less …” since “god” is a count noun.

  • No one is talking about howling – I dont know where that has come from. I have the same standing as you – both of us do not have to abide by others’ arbitrary rules. “Let them be silent” – as if that is going to happen.

  • Hey Daddy! Have you heard of that pesky fellow, the Good Samaritan? He rescued a man who had been robbed and was left half dead on the road. By your reckoning, he should have minded his own business and passed by on the other side. After all, that is what the priest and the levite did, so he would have been following the good example of the religious at the time.

    Or what about those busybodies who objected to slavery, or the burning of witches? And what about that busybody Plimsoll? He invented the Plimsoll Line to prevent ships being overloaded and sinking.

    What your self-made rule does is to support the oppressors by attacking their opponents. Great morals!

  • Many of these readers do not understand what a parable is. Jesus was a good, in fact perhaps the best story teller. A story is not to be parced as a passage of the Mishnah–and even there there are rabbis who disagree. The parables have Jesus have many layers, some laid on well after the fact. Attributing verse 27 to Jesus may be an anachronism. Many of the opponents of scripture are no less fundamentalist than the bible thumpers

  • Nothing is more effective in trashing the reputation of religion than the excesses, cruelties and hypocrisy of the believers………MGlass said from a comment further down. How true.

    Thank God for the secular which has a peculiar or divinely-led way of calling out these errors as a warning-to-all not to take everything or anything a religion says too seriously.

  • Well he better had believe before he’s put to death. The saving power of the Holy Spirit has got its work cut out for itself here.

  • No, it cannot.
    Your error had nothing to do with the nature or existence of any deity.
    It had to do with improperly modifying a count noun.
    The noun “god,” whether capitalized or not, is — like “book,” or “house,” or “object” — a count noun. Count nouns are modified by the adjectives “many/more/most” and “few/fewer/fewest.”
    Non-count nouns — such as “water” or “air” or “heat” — are modified by the adjectives “much/more/most” and “little/less/least.”
    Writing “one less god” is wrong for the same reason as “fewer air” is.

  • Actually, just as likely he could meet Mohammed instead? Wait a minute…maybe Joseph Smith and his golden tablets on the Mormon planet Kolob…or would it be L Ron Hubbard…no, perhaps Shiva and Vishnu…but if the Buddhists are right, he is getting reincarnated as a rat, that pesky Atheist!

    Jesus got competition !!

  • Jesus changed all this – we all deserve death for our sins, but a way was made in the New Covenant for our sins to be forgiven by the sacrifice of God’s only Son.

  • Though I disagree with atheists about the existence of God, I suspect on average they are no more immoral reprobates than they rest of us. Thank you for your measured response.

  • But I believe we are all enemies of God by nature, I merely aver that the Christian faith is the methodology by which to rectify that circumstance.

  • “The parables have Jesus have many layers, some laid on well after the fact. Attributing verse 27 to Jesus may be an anachronism.” Thank you, Joseph. What you suggest makes far more sense than anything I’ve been able to come up with.
    (Note that I have edited my above reply to jaej by prepending “apparent” to “depiction of intolerance…”.)

    “Many of the opponents of scripture are no less fundamentalist than the bible thumpers.” I certainly agree. When it comes to how people treat each other, antitheism and antiatheism are identical twins.

  • Any Muslim has the right to leave Islam Deen and become an Atheist any time. But no one has the right to insult some one’s faith. Hindus believe in one God but have distributed God creation in four sects like Brahman, Vaish, Kashtri and Shoddur. The Christian believe in one God but have distributed God power in three .Holy Father, Holy Son and Holy Ghost. We have got nothing to do with that. It is their belief, But we have no right to insult their belief,

    In Hindu or Christian countries there is no punishment for any culprit who shows disrespect to their religion. Even in Islam Deen of Quran there is no punishment either, God knew that under some circumstances in their life a Muslim may loose hopes and start using bad words in honor of Holy Prophet (S) and for that matter in honor of Allah (SWT). Allah has kept his doors open for all to repent and He is ever forgiving. It is the local Government who have their own rules to put any person to death for insulting Holy Prophet (S).

  • Here’s how the atheists’ worldview works: you are born, you live, and you die. End of story. So who cares?

    But here’s how the Christian worldview works:
    Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
    And before you were born I consecrated you…

    Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

    Matt. 6:25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?

    Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

    Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    Big dif…

  • Don’t think that worries Jesus too much.
    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

  • Studies of the percentage of Atheists in federal prisons has shown that there are rarer there than among the general population. This indicates that they are more moral on average than theists.

  • > “…But no one has the right to insult some one’s faith…”

    Nonsense !! Everybody has the right to insult someone’s faith and nobody has the right to punish them for doing so.

    Allah, even if real, does not send angels or saviors to earth…making the prophet Mohammed a fool and liar. I’m not just picking on your faith…Jesus, Moses, Brahma and others, also may not have existed, even if they did, they were frauds just like Mohammed

    If people die for insulting your religion, then your faith deserves far worse than blasphemy!.

  • All the religions on face of earth does not stand on logic and science. The creation of all creatures on face of earth did not come itself but there was a plan and according to plan they were created. We understand and see with our own eyes the laws of nature which is controlling all creatures. That creator is none but God Almighty. Why he created us through his laws of nature. God has made this beautiful planet earth like a paradise for us to enjoy every moment of life. Mankind followed his own will which resulted in disastrous situation. God directed his Prophets to lead the people on righteous path following his commandments called Deen. For good some time the followers followed the commandment but later the follower brought changes in those commandments and turned Deen into religion filled with fake rituals. 1400years ago Prophet Mohammad (S) came and brought Islam Deen with all commandments well documented in Quran for mankind to follow and be successful here and in the world after. Quran commanded Do not forget that after death there is going to be another world where you will live fir ever. There will be no end of life. God informed us that the life on earth is short and you have been given choice to do right or wrong. Your good action will take you paradise and or bad will take you to hellfire. After the death of Prophet Mohammad 200 years later Persian writers invented fake stories and fake saying of Prophet wrote several books and succeeded in turning Islam Deen into Islam religion.
    In past there were several learned non Muslims tried to find flaws in Quran but finally they surrounded and converted to Islam Deen of Quran.
    Quran talks about the reality not fairy tales. This is the most unfortunate part majority of Muslims are not following a single word of Quran but following those fake books as a result all Muslims are gone down to gutters.

  • No. Mohammed won’t be in Heaven; You need to recognize that Jesus is God’s son, and be born again to get into Heaven.

  • He is going to meet Jesus after his death – as we all will. He will have no option to not believe.

  • Well, Edward, yours is a Christian viewpoint, and I can more or less respect it. The more or less part comes because I no more believe you and I are enemies of omnipotence Thani believe we are enemiS of each other.

  • Please go and explain that to alisyed_zain who just posted on this topic above and has a completely different story than you?

  • oh gosh, lol…..then it looks like he’ll write me a book. I just saw how long his comments are! I have to read them too? 🙂
    Harry can probably give a much better answer than me……

  • Ok, until then…we should stick with Joseph Smith the Mormon, with golden tablets…that’s who will meet us in Heaven…until you and others work things out.

  • Actually Damien – Christ was telling a parable there. He wasn’t speaking for people to do such.

    Parable of Money Usage

    11While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. 12So He said, “A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13“And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas and said to them, ‘Do business with this until I come back.’ 14“But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15“When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done. 16“The first appeared, saying, ‘Master, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17“And he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ 18“The second came, saying, ‘Your mina, master, has made five minas.’ 19“And he said to him also, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20“Another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.’ 22“He said to him, ‘By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23‘Then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?’ 24“Then he said to the bystanders, ‘Take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25“And they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas already.’ 26“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27“But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”

  • 2 Peter 3:9 – English Standard Version

    The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

  • If we don’t have the right to laugh at your religious beliefs, then we really have no rights at all.

    The very fact that there are other beliefs than yours, far older than yours, is an insult to your faith. After all, they are just saying that you know no more of god and his message to the world than a parakeet.

    So here goes.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

    Ha!

  • Sorry, this atheist disagrees that killing other people because they are the wrong religion is a good idea.

    It makes you no better than theists who believe that killing other people for having the wrong religious beliefs is a good idea.

  • But if you are saying that that line is a later addition, doesn’t that sort of do in the idea of god’s eternal word? And most scholars agree that Jesus was referring to himself as that king.

  • I said earlier Islam is a Deen (Constitution) not religion. Those old religions you mentioned do not stand on logic and science. Any person with commonsense and wisdom has no choice except to laugh at the oldies.
    God had sent Deen but followers changed it into religion.

  • Holy Quran has commanded us. “Do not have blind faith. Always reason.”
    We are ready to reason with you or any one else about your doubts. Trust me it is not nonsense but truth.

  • Actually, I speak with him quite often, Ben. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don’t. Perhaps you should listen to him?

  • If you research the passage in question– don’t worry, you won’t– most scholars say it is Jesus referring to himself as that king.

    But of cours, you now better.

  • When someone says to me, “my religion is true, but all the rest are false” then You have already stepped well beyond the bounds of reason. There have been hundreds and thousands of religions in the world. But you have the truth, and you have reasoned your way there.

    Most likely, you are Muslim because your parents were. That’s not reason, that’s luck.

    But of course, that’s already obvious. Your fundelibangelists in Saudi Arabia have shown that the way they reason with unbelievers is murder. And if you want to claim they are not being good. Sulk said, well, that’s what they say about YOU.

  • So now we have the no true Muslim fallacy to go along with the “no true Scotsman” and the no true Christian” fallacies.

    There is REASON for you.

  • You realize of course, much of the Quran was plagiarized from mostly Jewish and some Christian writings.

    “Quran talks about the reality not fairy tales”…Mohammed rising to heaven on a white horse-like animal with wings is the definition of a Fairy Tale, — also talking to angels.

  • Bible was indeed from God Almighty but followers later brought changes according to their will and we say the Bible is now not in pure form. Quran has corrected several wrong messages mentioned in Bible.
    After the death of Prophet Mohammad 200 years later Persian writers invented fake stories, fake saying (Hadees) and wrote their books..They also invented fairy tales story from Zoroastrian religion that their Prophet flew on horse and met God in heaven. This was all BS. Prophet Mohammad never flew to heaven as God according to Quran God is present every where and to mankind he is closer then his jugular vein.

  • Majority of Muslims are not following Quran but following fake books written 200 years later of Prophet Mohammad death by Persians writers. Those writers were not eye witness.either.
    About people of other religions i can not say any thing whether they are on right path or no. I have seen number of Christians and Jewish very trustworthy. .

  • What do you mean by”wrong religious beliefs”? Did some “right ones” spring up recently? ALL RELIGION IS WRONG! They just compete in their “wrongness” with increasing levels of idiocy, intolerance, and in-fucking-humanity, as evidenced in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia, that wants to KILL AN ATHEIST FOR BEING SUCH! “Education” and “rationality” WILL NOT WORK with these monsters! Out-ir-rationalizing them remains the only option! Or, in a historical reference, do you think that we should have just tried to”educate” and “talk” the Japanese into surrendering in 1945? Had that been the case, we would STILL BE FIGHTING THEM!

  • So let me get this straight: you can insult my religion and that’s okay. But I can’t insult your sexual orientation or ethnic background?
    Trying to wrap my head around the logic of that concept.

  • No, atheists have their own saints of destruction:
    Joseph Stalin for example
    Mao Zedong for another
    Pol Pot for another
    Adolph Hitler

  • Bang bang, he shot me down
    Bang bang, I hit the ground
    Bang bang, that awful sound
    Bang bang, my baby shot me down

    well done

  • Like you, I don’t much care for religion, and I’m sure many of our reasons would coincide. But I have no objection to anyone, religiousor not, who is willing to live in peace with their neighbors. The problem is always people who think harming people is a good idea.

    As someone once said, if an eye for an eye is your guideline, pretty soon you end up with a world of blind people.

    Peace.

  • That analogy of the world becoming full of blind people is an idiotic used by CATHOLICS against the death penalty. Seeing as how: a.) There is NO “GOD” thing, b.) Humans have to solve the problems perpetuated by religion (like mandating deaths if non-believers), and c.) People that take a BULLSHIT religion seriously are NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO HANDLE “Education” or “Peace”, that pretty much leaves “out-irrationalizing” them as the only remaining option. It needs to be done against Saudi Arabia, AND North Korea. Diplomacy, tolerance, rationality, & “understanding” really are pretty useless against insane mindsets like Islam & North Korea’s idiotic cultism.

  • You don’t state what percentage of religious people are in jail and what their specific affiliations are, nor do you allude to agnostics, or non-theists who are not necessarily atheist; further, just because one does not reside within the confines of the Hardrock Hilton, does that fact exclude them from the category of the reprobate or immoral. Your factoid thus holds little meaning in the broader context of the discussion.

  • Big difference…religion is a falsifiable ideology or belief system that anyone is free to change, or should be. But people are born with, and cannot change sexual orientation or ethnicity.

    No, you shouldn’t insult black people’s ethnic background…but no problem insulting the tenets of Scientology, mocking atheists’ beliefs or laughing at Ken Ham’s Ark.

  • It would be more accurate to say that the author of the text saw Jesus as that King. The extent to which Jesus saw himself as the “Royal Judger,” is debatable. There appears to be an evolution from Mark to John in this regard. Mark’s version of the parable has “the owner of the vineyard,” leaving out the aspect of nobility or royal birth. In John, the last gospel to be written, we find Jesus articulating things about his divinity and the role that entitles him to. At the time that John wrote, Christology was more evolved than when Mark wrote. John was also influenced by the Gnostics although it’s not clear how that factors in this particular passage.

    It is also accepted that edits were made to the texts that were later accepted as part of the Canon. For example, the New American Version, Revised Edition has a footnote explaining that this parable was probably a synthesis of two different parables. At that point the question becomes not only what those two parables are telling us about the nature of G-D but what the combination of the two is trying to tell us. The concept of G-D’s eternal word is not quite the same thing as the concept of G-D’s eternal Word. The words used are fixed in time and space, the meaning behind those words is a different matter.

  • I’m not disagreeing with a word– or a Word– you say, but there are plenty of sola scriptorum people on this very site who will continue to claim that god’s word never changes, that the edits don’t exist, that what we see now is exactly what people 1700 to 1900 years ago saw, that whatever translation they prefer is the correct one, that there can be no questions.

    Some of those people are actually well educated and intelligent.

    For myself– and I say this with all respect to you– I would prefer to do away with the “authority” of all of these ancient texts. I have no need for them in my life, and forgthe most part, the times I see people really worrying about their authority (in the worst sense of the word) is when they wish to declare their dominion over the lives of others, and the superiority of their beliefs over the beliefs of others.

    I find it ironic that it s the atheists like me on this site who are always calling out some Christians who attack other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian.

  • I am of two minds when it comes to the role of the ancient texts. On the one hand, for me scripture is “current” in the sense that it is alive and capable of interacting with us in the here and now. On the other hand…. in my first semester in the seminary we had to take an introductory course in New Testament theology. I had a very very difficult time with the methodology. It felt like they were dissecting as if it was some dead animal. At some point, I can’t remember exactly when or what precipitated it, I had an epiphany of sorts and the process began to breath life into the texts. Perhaps I became less attached to what I thought the texts were saying and became open to what they could be saying.

    The sola scripture folks drive me nuts but I come from a faith tradition where that is not taught. I don’t know if the sola scripture folks have sole ownership of this trait but there exists in many an extreme rigidity in thinking. It’s as if to say that they have it all figured out and have perfect understanding of the mind of G-D. They don’t understand that that would make them equivalent to G-D and thus make any deity irrelevant. I once heard someone say that the first step to true knowledge and wisdom is to be willing to admit, at any moment, that you may be wrong. Or another: when there is a conflict between the truth and a firmly held belief, it is all too often that the truth comes out the loser.

  • But there are very fervent Christians of multiple persuasions who are advocating for the legal right to discriminate against homosexuals–because their identity and activity fly in the face of sincerely held beliefs. I concur that true christianity is incompatible with any form of discrimination. But a lot of so called christians are using their so called christian faith to do just that. They may not be directly advocating for death but denial of housing, getting fired from a job, etc., are not life affirming and can very well lead to situations that are life destroying.

  • The 1st amendment protects a Christians inalienable right to not be forced to participate and or be forced to support the homosexual agenda. It’s called freedom of conscience.

  • Making claims without validation is unacceptable. The other problem is many claim to be Christians but it doesn’t make it so. However to avoid and argument on how many are true Christians I’ll let God’s word speak to that.

    Matthew 20:16
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen

    Matthew 7:13-14
    ¶ Enter in at the strait gate: for it is the wide gate, and broad way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be which go in thereat. Because the gate is strait, and the way narrow that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few chosen.

    Luke 13: 23-28
    23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that shall be saved? And he said unto them,
    24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When the good man of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye began to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are,
    26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out at doors.

    Romans 9:27-28
    Also Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel were as the sand of the sea, yet shall but a remnant be saved.
    28 For he will make his account, and gather it into a short sum with righteousness: for the Lord will make a short count in the earth.

  • I going to call you out on your propaganda and outright lie on your less than honest “interpretation” of Luke 19: 11-27 because it resembles nothing that you claim.

  • The reason is and and as you atheists do when arguing your unfounded hateful opinion by your own words detest Christians and bad mouth them unnecessarily at every opportunity. Why would any sane person elect an atheist into a government when we know you will do everything in your power to oppress Christians?

  • The fact is Jesus stated that those who weren’t Christians would not comprehend His parables. Thank you for bringing that point across succinctly.

  • Fact is Jesus stated that those who weren’t Christians would not
    comprehend His parables. Thank you for bringing that point across
    succinctly.

  • There is also a difference between a religion and a faith something atheist don’t comprehend.

  • You are right on this: it is not ok to insult people’s ethnicity or their sexual orientation but it is not okay to insult people’s religion either. Your mother should have taught you better.
    See, even if I don’t agree with Mormons (I use to be RLDS) or JW’s, or muslims, I don’t insult their religion. Mom taught me better.
    As far as homosexuality goes, I don’t insult their disorder, but I do disagree with their wacko reasons for thinking it is okay.

  • wat? lol. OK the martyrs were snowflakes. Take away your latte and you’ll be whimpering over in a corner willing to convert to any religion.
    What are you willing to die for – atheism? lol

  • That concept doesn’t exist in the constitution Mr. Shoemaker. We have been through this before and I will not engage with you further. Reply and you will be blocked.

  • Obviously, you know nothing of exegesis nor what the word “goodbye” means.
    +blessings+

  • I think you inadvertently hit upon a truth. From what I have seen, the problem with that sort of Christian is that they really do think they are god’s BFFF, and frequently mistake that self assigned status for BEING god.

    “.God doesn’t like you and I agree with him.” Is a constant refrain in these pages.

  • If you are going to assert that I don’t understand Jesus’ parables, why don’t you at least comment on the posting I made where I talked about the parable. I seem to recall you upvoting that post. Instead, you take a posting where I say nothing about any parable or the use of parables or even the concept of parables and seem to assert that I don’t know anything about parables (OK, “fail to comprehend”). If you could confine your responses to what I actually say, dialogue could be facilitated. But you often respond to what I write by commenting on something totally different and then use that to somehow “disprove” what I had to say.That is a significant part of the reason why I can not and will not dialogue with you. It reminds me of trying to communicate with a schizophrenic in the midst of floridly loose associations. Not to say that you are schizophrenic only that trying to communicate with you stirs up some of those same frustrations.

    Sorry for the rant. I’m tired, can’t breath because of allergies, and particularly annoyed with you at the moment. That will pass. Perhaps it would be easier on my blood pressure if I simply blocked you but I would rather not.

    +blessings+

  • Sorry for coming in late, but in response to your “ANYWAY:” I see the two as existing on a continuum. If the two countries were to be faithful to their proclaimed religious heritage, we (the US) would not be ignoring the poor and vulnerable (or more accurately: showing a preference for the wealthy) an Saudi Arabia would not be executing people for expressing disbelief. The underlying principle is the same even if the intensity of the behaviors are grossly different.

  • I think you’re referring to antitheists, Bob Shoemaker, not atheists:
    Atheism is about one’s own belief; it implies nothing about others’.
    Antitheism is about others’ beliefs; it implies nothing about one’s own.
    The same holds true for theism and antiatheism, respectively.
    Personally, I strongly oppose both antitheism and antiatheism.
    I support respecting each other’s spiritual/existential boundaries.

  • An atheist blocking a Christian because you lost your unfounded 1st amendment argument.

  • Why because I won’t agree with your anti-Christian arguments? And what I posted is in fact found in the bible said by Jesus Himself. So why are you so angry? And if you’re that angry at me and no longer want to defend your unbiblical position just say you no longer want to converse with me because you no longer want to discuss what’s actually found in the bible

  • Just because a person does not adhere to your flavor of Christianity does not make him an atheist. Examine the assumptions that you make about me and weigh them in light of how Jesus tells us to treat people. They will know that we are Christians by our love.
    Goodbye Mr. Shoemaker

  • and you upvoted what I wrote commenting on what Jesus said in the Bible.
    I do not want to engage with you because you are incapable of engaging in conversation. The very minimal requirement for that is to actually respond to what the person is saying not what you THINK he is saying or some other topic altogether. When the other person tells you that you aren’t getting it, the proper response is, “what did you mean?” Not, “you are wrong.”
    Goodbye, have a good life.

  • Having been involved in prison ministry, I can tell you that there are a fair number of prisoners whose “christianity” is circumstantial. Once they are released they often resort to their former ways of thinking. Bible study groups and the what not are sometimes one of the few times that a prisoner interacts with someone from outside the system. If you look at behaviors that one would call “christian,” there’s not a whole lot of difference between believers and nonbelievers.

  • Similar observations can be made about Christianity. Jesus came and taught; a holy book ensued; people forgot that The Book is a tool that points to G-D and instead put the focus on the book. (from my understanding, Moslems are “people of the book.” No offense is intended. My knowledge of Islam is incomplete, thank you for your contributions.)

  • With all due respect to Mr. Zain, that would be a myth not a fairy tale. I can’t speak for Islam but in Christianity a myth is a story that communicates a truth while not necessarily being literally true. “Fairy tale” has a dismissive tone to it that many people may say is used to create offense rather than foster dialogue.

  • Mark, there’s a HUGE difference between the two cases: Saudi Arabia has a state religion called Islam. The Saudi monarchy strictly enforces Sharia law as the law of the land, and can execute people for both “religious crimes,” as well as civil crimes. The US has NO state religion. Our government does not enforce the laws of any of ANY religion. Our citizens have complete freedom of religion. The US government is in no way required to care for “the poor and vulnerable.” Caring for one’s neighbor is undertaken by the religions and by caring people who claim no religion. Only incidentally does the government provide funds to care for the needy, and the expenditure of those funds is voted on by representatives of the American people, religious and nonreligious!

    Those are rather big differences, wouldn’t you say?!

  • Yes, big differences. But there is an underlying organizing principle that can be the basis for comparison. As I said, just because there is such an underlying principle, does not mean that the manner in which the actions are implemented are not grossly different.

  • Why did you conclude that I was angry? Frustration is a more appropriate word. By upvoting my commentary on the particular text, you were agreeing with me. So what is to defend, we were on the same page. Or are you talking about something different again?

  • Just because I agreed with one comment that was accurate you now think I agree with everything else you believe? You deceive yourself.

  • Did I say that you agreed with me on everything that I believed? Once again, you are addressing something other than what I wrote.

  • No, I am refusing to allow you to expand what I say beyond that which I actually say.

  • I am purposefully restricting the conversation to the topics at hand. You can put words in my mouth all you want. I will not validate them.

  • You implied that I always agreed with all your comments and I pointed out your error and that I only agreed with one out of many comments you made in this thread. So what is bothering you about that answer?

  • Actually the bible says you will know them by their fruits hey but then again you have yet to quote scripture properly. And it’s not that you don’t fit my kind of Christianity but you don’t fit what God and/or His word identifies as a Christan. Perhaps you should refresh yourself with Matt 23 to see how Christ treated those that misquoted and misused God’s commands. The Pharisees used only the scriptures that fit their agenda just as you are doing on this thread. Mind you I’m not calling you a Pharisee but pointing to the fact you’re using their tactics. Yes Jesus told us to love our neighbor but He also said to rebuke those that are in error. So preaching half of the gospel is as good as teaching none of it.

    The” Love” Gospel Does Not Love Truth

    The “Love Gospel” is another gospel but it is not the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The “Love Gospel” overlooks sound Biblical doctrine in order to accept those of other faiths as Christians.

    The major emphasis is on love and unity. The false “Love” Gospel is the bases of Ecumenism and is leading towards a one world religion in these last days.

    In order to accomplish this unity, the Bible is compromised, causing doctrines of demons to come into the Church, or a least what is passing off today in some circles as Christianity. Those who follow This “Love Gospel” cry the loudest, “Don’t judge” and “you’re causing division.”

    Today, there are so many false and watered down false gospels being preached today. Messages which require no real repentance, commitment and do not recognize the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We can see this in the modern translations of the Bible which are constantly changing God’s word, and pseudo “gospel” presentations given to the tickling ears.

    The “Love Gospel” perverts God’s Word by twisting scripture to suit an agenda. Sound doctrine is ignored in order to justify a false unity for the sake of peace.

    Here is a typical misconstrued scripture by the followers of the “Love Gospel.”

    Mark 9: 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    The “Love Gospel” uses this verse without examining all scripture within its context in order to overlook testing the spirts, proving all things and examining ourselves to see if we are in the true faith as scriptures also exhort. While there may be some who follow Jesus that do not belong to “our” church that does not mean that all who come in Jesus name are of the truth. Sound Bible doctrine is important and we are commanded to defend the faith from those who would water it down, pervert it, or deny it.

    Jude 13. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Galatians 16. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, IF ANY [man] PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT YE HAVE RECEIVED, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. For do I now persuade men, or God? or DO I SEEK TO PLEASE MEN? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    Is Paul being divisive and judgmental? Not at all ! Paul is demonstrating his love for Jesus by defending the faith against the invading wolves and false teachers which he said would sneak into the fold.

    Matthew 7:13 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    1 John 511 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. HE THAT HATH THE SON HATH LIFE; [and] HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

    2: Matthew 7 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and THEN THOU SHALT SEE CLEARLY to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    The Bible clearly says do not judge if you are doing the same things but it says to stop doing wrong things so you can judge righteously. We don’t throw out judging altogether! Christians are commanded to JUDGE between sound doctrine and error . Christians are not supposed to blindly accept any wind of teaching. The Bereans would be able to reject any false doctrine because it would not line up with the Word.

    Acts 17:10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    God’s Word also says Matthew 7:15 15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    2 Peter 2:1 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    1 John 4:1 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    1 Corinthians 6:2 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

    Christians are to put every teaching to the test of the Bible, God’s Word. If the teaching does NOT line up with the Word….then REJECT it! We are living in the last days when many will not endure sound doctrine. Seducing spirits and doctrines of devils are coming into the Churches in droves and rather than rejecting them and standing for truth, the “Love’ Gospel ” promotes unity over truth of scriptures.

    The “love” gospel does not want to hear about repentance, or sin, or hell or judgment but these are all scriptural concepts and we are commanded to preach them!

    1 Timothy 4:1 1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather REPROVE [them].

    Psalms 94:16 16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? [or] who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

    The “love gospel” adherents, afraid of persecution, will end up “loving” people to hell fire! If you really have God’s love in your heart you will preach the truth. Warn the sinner of future judgment and hell fire for rejecting Jesus Christ. Tell them that God loved the world that he sent Jesus to die for them but also tell them that God’s wrath is upon all who reject so great salvation.

  • Your flavor of Christianity, as well as everyone’s flavor of Christianity starts with certain assumptions. One of those assumptions is the primacy of scripture. Others phrase it as Sola scripture. I do not belong to that faith tradition. You accuse me of being selective in my choice of scripture. You have done the same thing–selecting scripture to prove your point. It seems that you are starting with a premise and then finding verses to prove your point. That is called eisogesis in contrast to exogesis.
    My approach to scripture is holistic. You will not find me hammering people over the head with a barrage of Bible verses in order to prove me right or someone wrong. I don’t know what you mean as the “love gospel.” It seems like you are using it in a disparaging way. On the surface it seems to have more to do with the gospel of Jesus than the “fear and trembling” gospel.
    Looking back on what you wrote, can you honestly say that this is an attempt to understand me and what I value? To me it seems like one more attempt to prove that your flavor of Christianity is the correct one. If someone were to take the same approach to you, would you be inclined to share the things that you value?
    For the record, the Pharisees were the ones who tried to use scripture to trap Jesus. They are the ones who helped crucify Jesus because he did not conform to their flavor of Judaism. There he was eating with prostitutes and sinners; how could he speak for G-D much less be the Messiah. No, this Jesus had to die because he upset the status quo–the status quo established by their view of scriptures.

  • Inferring intent is risky business. You made inferences as to what I meant. I meant exactly what I said–no more, no less. Rather than make inferences, it’s usually more productive to ask what the other person meant. That means Taking the risk of finding out that your inference was wrong.
    I am not sure what you mean by “pointing​ out my error.” Since I made no inference, there was no error to correct.
    Which answer? “That” answer or this one? I can’t jump intó your mind so as to know what you are talking about. If I had to guess, and assuming you meant “that” (unknown) answer, based on experience with you, I was bothered because your answer was disconnected to whatever I said. It’s like asking what’s for supper and being told: don’t you know you had meatloaf two weeks ago?

  • That is your deflection and you said I agreed with you and I was specific that agreeing on one specific point most certainly DOESN’T mean we are in agreement on all things. The fact is I mostly disagree with you and will never up tick you again because you tend to start an argument over the slightest things a trait of liberals and faux christians.

  • Of course it’s terrible that Saudi Arabia condemns a man to death for atheism and even jails his lawyer. However, when the United States supported brutal dictators in Latin America, many thousands of radicals died and US prestige suffered. Western disregard for the poor also reflects badly on the West.

  • I never said that I agreed with you on all things. I am not deflecting, I am keeping things on focus. I am sad that you feel so comfortable standing in judgment of fellow Christians. I was taught that it is G-D’s job to judge but apparently s/he has delegated the job to you.

  • Sorry, should be that you agreed with me on all things. Coffee hasn’t kicked in.

  • By “deflection” do you mean refusing to be baited into doctrinal arguments? You seem to be under the impression that having the right to ask a question obliges the other person to provide an answer. You do not hold that level of power. I have explained to you why I will not engage in doctrinal debates. If and when you are capable of demonstrating basic respect, I might reconsider. In case you are wondering, accusing someone of being a faux christian is being disrespectful. You may have noticed that while I disagree with you stand on many things, I have not disparaged your relationship with G-D. You are exactly where G-D wants you and while I do not understand why G-D would want anyone to be where you are, I do not claim the need to understand. That does not mean, however, that I will not call you on your insulting and denigrating words.

  • The reason I drew your attention to your upvote was because in that particular posting I was engaging in the process of exegesis that illustrated the role interpretation plays in one’s approach to scripture. You have made numerous denigrating comments about “the fallacy of interpretation,” without defining what you meant. I was curious to see whether or not you were aware of any cognitive dissonance. Put differently, why endorse a process that you believe to be a “fallacy?” Unlike yourself, while I have every right to ask the question, I do not believe that you are under any obligation to answer it.

  • You know, Mr. Shoemaker, I re-read Mtt 23.http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/23#48023014-1 Nowhere in there do I find any reference to Jesus accusing the pharisees of misquoting scripture. Instead he accuses them of tying “up heavy burdens [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.” Who were the Pharisees? They were guardians of The Law–which just so happened to be the covenant between G-D and the people of Israel. Jesus gives them a rather scathing rebuke for [using scripture to] lay burdens on people that they can not lift. Sorta sounds familiar to what you did above.

    Jesus, in contrast, did not hesitate to place people above scripture. He healed on the sabbath which was a violation of The Law; he reminded people that David ate the bread consecrated to G-D–a violation of The Law. You may not like the gospel of love but it is the Gospel of Jesus. And it is that Gospel that one must be imbued in before you can appreciate what Paul, or anyone else, says about the Gospel of Jesus. That’s what the apostles did, that’s what Paul did (He stayed some days with the disciples in Damascus, and he began at once to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God), that’s what we must do.

    Based on your comments thus far, I would have predicted that you belonged to a flavor of Christianity that prioritized faith over works. Given what you wrote above, you must belong to some other sect.

  • The problem with your statistics is that they are inaccurate in that not all those that claim to be Christians are Christians and yes many make that claim however I can back up what I say through the bible….

    Matthew 20:16
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen

    Matthew 7:13-14
    ¶ Enter in at the strait gate: for it is the wide gate, and broad way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be which go in thereat. Because the gate is strait, and the way narrow that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few chosen.

    Luke 13: 23-28
    23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that shall be saved? And he said unto them,
    24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When the good man of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye began to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are,
    26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out at doors.

    Romans 9:27-28
    Also Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel were as the sand of the sea, yet shall but a remnant be saved.
    28 For he will make his account, and gather it into a short sum with righteousness: for the Lord will make a short count in the earth.

    So as you can see your statistics are useless when actually compare to the bible and what the bible says about biblical Christians.

  • So you want to make another claim that is just not true or supported by the bible? The fact is Christ Himself commands us to judge all things.

    1 Cor 6:1-11 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!a 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Leviticus 19:15 15 ¶ Ye shall not do unjustly in judgment: Thou shalt not favor the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty, but thou shalt judge thy neighbor justly.

    1 Cor 2:10-16 Judge all things
    10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
    16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he might instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    2 Cor 11:1-4 False Preachers
    1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Eph 5:11 Works of Darkness
    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Luke 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you: a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom: for with what measure ye mete, with the same shall men mete to you again.

  • What claim do you think I am making that you see as not being supported by the Bible? That it is G-D’s job to judge? See Mtt 25:31-46.

  • Propose some saints for us to take our debate.

    What constitutes “right judgment?”

    Where, in these discussions, can I find “just judgement?”

    1 Cor 2:15 What makes you think that you can judge me? More to the point, what makes you thing that the spirit that G-D has given you is any more correct than the spirit that s/he has given me?

    2 Cor:11 The Jesus that you have preached here is very different than the Jesus that I encountered. Who is going to determine which is “true?” They both have scriptural basis.

    Eph: your work here does not appear to be exceptionally fruitful. I have seen no evidence that you have converted anyone or shown anyone the error of their ways. I have seen you, however, piss people off.

    Luke 6: Exactly!

  • By your arguments you caused me to make a judgement of your tactics and yes in another I posted where we are commanded by Christ to judge all things. So until you can back up your claims biblically as I do with scripture I have no choice but to judge the things you post. The bible does say we are always to be prepared to give an answer and that’s what I have been doing all along.

  • I think you are responding to the wrong posting. You did not address anything I wrote.

  • The type of judging that you are referring to is not what I am talking about. You are human just like the rest of us. Your knowledge is finite; G-D’s is infinite. G-D is capable of the mind and heart of a person; you are not. You may know the word but the Word of G-D transcends our limited understanding. Your and my understanding of what scripture means is imperfect (if you claim otherwise, you have made yourself equal to G-D. Any judgment that any of us makes (even if commanded by scripture) is imperfect because there is no possible way to remove our ego.

    While it is a doctrinal issue as to whether scripture is the only tool on our belt, here are some citations to support that G-D, in the person of Jesus (not you) is our ultimate judge.

    You may want to pay particular attention to James 5:9; John 8:15-16; and Romans 14:10

    James 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

    Acts 10:42 “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

    John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

    John 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

    John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

    John 8:15-16 “You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. “But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.

    John 8:26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

    John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

    Acts 10:38-42 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. “We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. “God raised
    Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

    Acts 17:30-31 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

    Romans 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

    2 Timothy 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

  • Who are those people that scripture tells us to correct and judge. Would the people doing the judging happen to belong to any particular community? Would the people being judged be intimately known by the judges? Would the judges know the life circumstances of the person being judged? That is the kind of judging that scripture supports. It does not support judging someone whom you do not know. It does not support judging the thoughts, ideas, or behaviors of people outside of your personal life–strangers whom you do not know.

  • I see your point and tend not to endorse such policies, yet at the same time my reading of scripture makes it clear that active homosexuality is not consistent with the commands of Christ. Therefore, normal civil freedoms should be available to all, but restrictions with respect to roles in the church remain.

  • Again Christ commands all Christians to judge and I gave you scripture that proved that fact. So let’s start there shall we?

    Note to you : nothing in your misquoted scripture tells us not to judge but the scripture by Christ Himself command us to judge in no uncertain terms.

    1 Cor 6:1-11 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!a 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  • You are wrong Mr. Shoemaker. Scripture does not command Christians to be global judges. Scripture does not command you to pass judgment on people that you do not know. Judgment is to occur in the context of the church–the community of G-D where people know each other and each other situations. Within a small community people know each other an their situations. You are distorting the word of G-D to fit your own agenda. That is sinful. Paul never told the church in Corinth that it was acceptable to pass judgment on people in Rome or Thessalonica or anywhere else. He was instructing people how to function within their own community, within their own church. Paul gave correction to different communities because he was personally involved with different communities. You do not see him admonishing the church in Antioch, Jerusalem, India, Egypt or anywhere else. Those words neither command nor authorize you to pass judgment on people you do not know. Period. End of Story.

    If you have been to the seminary, as you claim, you know what the words in the text you quoted mean and do not mean. It is sinful for you to use G-D’s word to impose burdens on people that can not be lifted. Get off your high horse and take the log out of your own eye before you start focusing on the sins of others.

  • And that is essentially what the author of the article is endorsing. More specifically, he’s focusing on the civil side of things. As it stands now, the law does not require clergy to perform same sex marriages. Churches are free to govern and define things as they want–within their own churches. Step into the context of civil law and all people have to be treated equally.

    Personally, I think we should adopt how Europe does things. Clergy in Europe are not agents of the state. A church wedding does not give civil status of marriage. If you want a marriage to be legal it must be witnessed by a civil servant. Then you can go and have your church wedding. That’s exactly Prince William and Kate did it.

  • Christ is speaking to the Saints as he is here.

    John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    .

  • So that rules you and I and every other mortal out of the judging business–at least as far as these verses go.

  • In case you missed my other response in another thread, the verses you cite in support of christians judging were written to churches, not individuals. Those verses address the right and duty of the churches to correct, admonish, teach, judge (within their parameters) members of their flock. The verses do not give every christian the right much less the duty to judge anyone he or she wants.

  • Yes scripture always rules over man’s opinions. But what you seem to be missing is the difference between judging and condemning. There lies your problem.

  • I am not missing anything. I have used scripture to show that it is not YOUR job to judge.

  • You don’t believe scripture because you say you can’t question the authors let alone know who they are. I seriously thinking of blocking you because you’re a very deceitful person.

  • Actually, you are the one who raised the argument that authors that someone had cited could not be questioned because they were not around. I was returning the same argument to you. You can dish it out but you can not take the heat?

    Blocking me would simply mean that I would not see your nonsense. But I suppose that would not be a surprising choice for an atheistic bully.

  • oh silly fool. You can’t see how your own arguments are being tossed back to you to illustrate how stupid they are.

  • Really? Why aren’t Christians, Jews, etc…persecute those who don’t “believe”?

  • “Here’s how the atheists’ worldview works: you are born, you live, and you die. End of story. So who cares?”

    No.. that’s what Christians want to believe about atheists.

  • Yeah, and I supposed being white makes me look up to the KKK for guidance too.

    SJW logic. Go back to Tumblr and drink your latte.

  • Well, it kinda goes both ways. Ever hear of the horseshoe effect? Regressive liberals on the far left want to oppress others by forcing them to abide to their social standards and ask for their gender pronouns, at the expense of other people’s social standards.

    But yes, I agree. Even recently, Ireland got a blasphemy law legalized for Christianity. SJW’s exist on both sides.

  • They do. Blasphemy laws for Christianity do exist. Not in America thankfully, but around the world.

  • ^^ This.

    I feel like everyone should take a trip to another country with a completely different religion to give them some perspective.

    So many people spend too much time in their echo-chambers believing whatever they want, and forget that there are a whole lot of other people out there who believe differently, but just as strongly (and irrationally) as they do.

  • I remember going on some article on Breitbart and saw quite a few people call for atheists to be killed or sent out of the country. I’m glad you had the luxury of not running into those terrible people, but you cannot deny that they exist, ‘real’ Christian or not.

  • Well, one side wants justice and mercy for all. One side says “we ought to be able to do whatever we want.”

    Personally, I really dislike the derision inherent in the idea of SJW. It demeans people who care about others, and elevates those who do not to a wholly imaginary superiority.

  • I’m sure it was really boring. Probably even more boring than christian heaven.

  • I don’t deny they exist, I question their credentials as Christians.

  • Only ignorant would insult the religion of others. Islam is not religion but a complete code of life. This is one of the commandment of Quran Not to use bad words for any religion. About magic there are number of foolish Muslims and non Muslims believing in absurdities. Your way of life has permitted you to use any bad words in your verbal or writing way but Muslims are not supposed to use. This is the difference between Muslims and non Muslims
    There are several countries using Islam name with their country name but in reality there is no Islam of Quran in any country. .

  • If we had a real, principled functioning World Court System, the judge in Saudi Arabia who handed down this death sentence would be arrested for proposing genocide. A warrant would be issued for his arrest, he would be extradited, and go on trial and serve a prison sentence for the crime of handing down this sentence. The civilized world needs to send both him and Saudi Arabia a message that this sort of barbaric Islamic practice is not acceptable to a nation who wishes to be part of the United Nations. If they balk, they are really no different from a Pariah State like North Korea.

  • A poll taken in Muslim Countries showed that 64% favored the death penalty for apostasy. Even if this figure is high, it is still shocking that millions of Muslims believe this. How do you define an average Muslim? I think you are right as regards a Muslim living in America, but even then there are probably some who still support such barbarism.

  • I assume that apostasy occurs enough time in Muslim countries to be notable but minus a few you actually don’t get killed for it. If so many truly believed that, I would think more people would be. So, that poll, which I see tossed around sometimes, doesn’t tell me much.

    Various types of believers, including Christians of certain types in the U.S., have some horrible beliefs. If you asked them in an anonymous poll, their beliefs will come off as more extreme. But, the run of the mill Christian like the run off the mill Muslim — using a rough average meaning of such terms — don’t share such extreme beliefs.

    I hold to my comment.

  • I think what concerns me most in Saudi Arabia is not numbers, but the reaction inside the Country. Outrage is expressed from abroad, Amnesty Int’l etc., but within the Country itself, there is little reaction. What you say about numbers is correct, but this is not about numbers, it is about one man being condemned to die for exercising freedom of speech and thought. When Dawkins, “God Delusion” was translated into Arabic, it has gotten 2-3 million downloads in Saudi Arabia alone. This suggests to me a huge population that is fed up with Islam but afraid to say so.

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