Beliefs David Gushee: Christians, Conflict and Change Faith Opinion

When the evangelical establishment comes after you

Eugene Peterson. Screenshot from Youtube

(RNS) — Eugene Peterson discovered painfully that the evangelical establishment will immediately seek to destroy anyone who breaks with their understanding of orthodoxy on LGBTQ issues.

Nothing he did before mattered. Nothing else he believes mattered.

The guns were turned on him, posthaste, in a choreography of rejection as public and painful as possible.

This has happened so many times before that the real wonder of events last week was that Rev. Peterson somehow did not anticipate that it would happen to him:

This is evangelical nuclear deterrence, and it works very well most of the time to beat wonderers and wanderers into submission.

But when it fails, and someone strays, those body blows from former evangelical friends are enough to make most anyone shake at the knees.

  • Look at sturdy old World Vision, which also was beaten into submission just a few years ago on the gay marriage issue;
  • Look at the persistent attacks on those who won’t be beaten into submission, dissenters like Jen Hatmaker and Rachel Held Evans;
  • Look at all the pastors I hear from who tell me they would announce their own change of heart if they didn’t have to fear the consequences.

If you do decide to make the break, you have to be spiritually ready. You have to know what’s going to happen. You have to count the cost before saying anything. You have to understand that those who stand with scorned and marginalized people will be scorned and marginalized.

“Still Christian” by David P. Gushee. Image courtesy of Westminster John Knox Press

You have to realize that whatever abuse you are taking from evangelical authorities is nothing compared to the abuse that LGBTQ people have taken from pastors, teachers, parents, and “Christian friends” every day of their lives.

Then that all has to get connected to your Christian discipleship. You have to reach a place where you see that being abused by religious authorities for standing in solidarity with those they deem unclean is exactly what happened to Jesus, the One whom you have pledged to follow, imitate and obey.

In my new memoir, “Still Christian,” I tell the story of what happened to me when I published my 2014 book, “Changing Our Mind,” which called for inclusion of LGBTQ Christians in the church on the same terms as everyone else. The memoir is to be published on Sept. 1. Here is an excerpt:

From conservative evangelicals as a whole, I received rejection. In every way that people communicate right now, people communicated: anonymous letters in the mail with lots of vile photocopied materials, angry emails, Facebook posts and direct messages, tweets, critical reviews, invitations to debate, Twitter bomb attacks when I refused to debate. It was sometimes substantive engagement. It was often ad hominem attack.

Within days, I experienced a first: disinvitations from scheduled speaking appearances. Hardin-Simmons University, Campbellsville University, Vose Seminary in Perth, Australia—I can’t even remember them all…

The beat went on. The disinvitations continued—indeed, a few still continue. In 2015, after completing the monumental task of revising “Kingdom Ethics” with InterVarsity Press, I received a polite call from the editorial director who told me that the press would no longer be able to carry the book—not because of its new content on LGBT issues, but because I was now a problematic author for this prototypical evangelical organization to publish.

 

But a bit later I say this:

It has been a humbling honor to be so often in the presence of gay Christians and ex-Christians driven out of the church in the name of the Bible. To be entrusted with their stories, and sometimes with their hope for a better future for the next generation of gay kids, has been profound. My sense of solidarity with them has only deepened, while my resistance to rejectionist (and bystander) Christianity has only intensified. For the first time in my life, I have come to a personal experience of what it is like to have the full force of (white-straight-male) Christian orthodoxy used against you. It has certainly deepened my sympathy for others who have long had just that experience.

Today I would much rather stand with rejected LGBTQ Christians than with those who reject them. I have therefore turned in my evangelical ID badge and moved on to do just that.

So don’t worry about me, or about the rough week Eugene Peterson had. Do worry about those LGBTQ Christian kids who continue to experience stigma, rejection, and even contempt in their own Christian homes, churches and schools. Worry about what the events of last week taught them.

(David Gushee writes the “Christians, Conflict and Change” column for RNS)

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David Gushee

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  • Well said, David! Very well said. By the time I changed my mind on LGBT issues I did not face the problems many affirming evangelicals faces. I no longer attended an evangelical congregation and had already left my leadership position in the very evangelical Family Christian Stores.

    Though I did have significant pushback, my transition was not nearly so tough as some evangelicals–I was not a big fish and was not as much involved in the evangelical community. And my livelihood was not threatened.

    My heart goes out to those evangelicals who are hit so hard and so publicly.

  • The one who claims to follow Christ cannot embrace nor support homosexuality. The Scripture forbids it.

  • Q: For a conservative evangelical, what would be the only thing worse than going to hell?
    A: Going to heaven and seeing LGBTQ people there.

  • I don’t think it’s about “destroying” people. I think it’s about refusing to allow people to get destroyed. The Gay Goliath, unlike the Christian community, always plays for keeps.

    Like Merritt said (oh so happily),, Eugene Peterson has a lotta influence. It honestly was — and is — NOT the time for a shoulder-shruggung, namby-pamby, Neville Chamberlain response from the evangelical community.

  • But I suppose you’d say that it is perfectly OK to own another person and still be a Christian?

    The way Evangelicals treat LGBTQ people and their friends is enough to drive me screaming from even wanting to have anything to do with “Christians.” But then I remember Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, the lowest of the low in his society. I know where he’d be at if he were here today, and it would be with those who are treated like scum by the religious.

  • Huh?? Who owns another person? I have eaten with homosexuals and I don’t treat them like scum.

  • The Evangelical community has always treated the LGBTQ community like garbage. I remember 30 years ago when AIDS was really spreading, and it was held out as “God’s judgment on heinous sinners for their evil lifestyle.” You don’t hear much of that now, since HIV+/AIDS is manageable with medication.

    I wouldn’t care if Evangelicals wanted to bleat in their own churches about how harmful LGBTQ is (except, of course, for the harm done to LGBTQ people in those churches). However, Evangelicals are on the front lines of denying LGBTQ persons the same rights straight people have not to be discriminated against in housing and employment. Every time one of those ordinances comes up before a city council, who is there to speak against it? Why, Reverend someone or Brother somebody, to talk about how wrong this is. Jesus didn’t tell his followers to take rights away from people. He didn’t tell his Evangelical followers to spend time going after LGBTQ people. He said nothing of the sort. But so many Evangelicals, they think they have to do this. And I have to look on and say, “This is whack and has nothing to do with Jesus.”

    If Evangelicals would truly follow Jesus and love their neighbors as themselves, and, if they consider LGBTQ people to be their enemies, to pray for them, as Jesus says, hey, maybe some of the hostility would come down. But continuing to treat LGBTQ people as second-class scum, unworthy of any love, that’s just nasty.

  • Do you have any idea how large the Evangelical community is? Its composed of millions of people.
    I’m sure you would agree that the dangerous health issues associated with homosexual sex is enough to dissuade anyone from engaging in it. Its deadly. I know at least 4-5 homosexual men who are either very sick or have died from engaging in it.

  • “Look at all the pastors I hear from who tell me they would announce their own change of heart if they didn’t have to fear the consequences.”

    Because nothing makes it easier to say, “I have the courage of my convictions” like not having any convictions.

    What this should tell you, Mr. gushee, is that this is not about what the Bible says or doesn’t say, but about an ancient, vicious, and durable prejudice. And what it is really about is how much the subject obsesses some heterosexuals and, I am increasingly convinced, a lot of people who desperately wish they were, but aren’t.

  • I keep telling you. If you have health issues with homosexuality, you are obviously doing it wrong. Sex doesn’t kill anyone. Promiscuity might. And religious bigotry definitely will.

    I think the lesson for gay people is to stay as far away from Christians like you as possible.

  • Of course you treat us like scum. Whether blaming us for the sexual problems of heterosexuals or engaging in your fecal bleating about how “dangerous it is”, you are constantly treating us like scum.

    Oh, I’m sorry. My mistake. you just talk about us as if we were scum.

  • The bible represented people who burned witches, owned slaves, and though genocide was moral.
    And that’s why we should use the bible as a guide to present society.

  • I appreciated this post, and I think what really resounds is the “if you think how YOU are treated for this is bad, try being LGBTQ” message. LGBTQ Christians have a hard, uphill fight, and they deal with rejection, hostility, and hatred from their own faith/churches that I cannot even fathom.

  • THE BIGGER THE FISH, THE HARDER EVANGELICALS WILL GANG-BASH THEM
    So, the bigger people are, the harder people get pushed to the ground by evangelicals. It is interesting to hear how the religious are persecuted by others, also religious, that are arguably more committed to the extremity of actions they are willing to take in the name of their strong sociopathic religious beliefs. It is a good thing the less extreme religious persons live in a secular society where government and religion is supposed to be kept separate, otherwise an evangelical government could easily look the other way while those not expressing evangelicalism might risk being exposed to the murder-death-kill passions of the evangelicals without repercussions.

  • Lesbians have lower STD rates than heterosexuals. And heterosexuals can engage in the same sex acts that homosexuals do.

  • I have no more contempt for the Abrahamic religions than does your average Jew baiting, Muslim hating, liberalichristian despising conservative Christian.

    Actually, I have none. My issue, as I have told you before, is with dominionists such as yourself.. I’m the one that is always telling the True Christians (TM) like you to stop attacking other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian.

  • Yes the Bible does have a problem with it. You kidnap me and make a slave outta me, (or if I do the very same thing to you), God said that’s a death penalty offense.

    Yet people are still trying to figure out how it is that American slavery ended up becoming a wholesale bloodbath Civil-War slaughterhouse. Like God was joking or something.

    Some Christians tried to point out to America what the Bible said, but people (including some other Christians) just wouldn’t listen.

    Sort of like the current gay marriage gig, honestly. I support the “Love Thy Neighbor” thing on all cylinders, but this nation is facing *another* collision course with God.

  • I come from a Christian perspective. However Evangelicals insist we must take the Bible literally and rigidly about homosexuality. However, if you take the Bible rigidly and literally on any number of issues, it can be a
    source of evil, such as Genocide, blaming all Jews for killing Jesus, slavery, burning witches, etc. Where did Evangelicals ever get the idea that we can NEVER revise our understanding of any Scripture? There are actually many Scriptures which revise our understanding of other Scriptures.

  • Awwwww….you decided to forsake Jesus for the promotion of sin and are upset because someone disagreed with you. Did the Christian’s put you on a hate list? Christ gave them the right to turn you over to Satan; did they do that, or did they just try to help you to see your error and how you are hurting others, and yourself? So the new book is a pity party, eh? So sad. Repent and turn to Christ.

  • Thank you for your post. Though I remain solidly within the traditional view of marriage, I was stunned by the reaction of so many fellow evangelicals in less than 24 hours. Though Jonathan Merritt’s interview was accurate in how it represented Eugene’s views, one could tell there was more left unstated. But rather than wait for more to come, the reaction was swift and ungracious. I hope one can still have deeply held convictions AND display the character of Christ at the same time.

  • Christ taught it this way:

    Acts 20: 28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

  • How can (no attack, it’s just a question) a person worship “God” and worship “Gay”at the same time?

    How can you live as a Gay Christian when homosexual behaving and even adopting a gay self identity is against Jesus Himself (1 Cor 6:9-11)? His response to it was to wash it away from the Corinthians as just one of many sins.

    This question could have been asked by Merritt, but was not.

  • The entire thing is a white wash. Christianity is about bringing people back into a loving relationship with Jesus, which they cannot have without repenting of their sin. Trash like the pity party above only endeavour to divert more people from the reality of Christ’s love for them and try to turn He and His into ogres and nasty people.
    The fight is for people’s salvation and the sin of homosexuality is the latest tool that satan is using to corrupt people’s understanding of their need for the truth. The author, if he ever knew this, has forgotten it and made pleasing man, more important than pleasing Christ.
    The saddest thing is, on the backs of the homosexuals et al, who will buy this trash, he is actually furthering them from the reality of the love of Christ and desire for better for them – all on the backs of the people he’s trying to pull from the real Christ. Another person abusing homosexual for his benefit.

  • It is interesting to remember that Nancy Hardesty and Letha Scanzoni’s book, “Is the Evangelical My Neighbor?” came out in the 70’s. Both went on to found the Evangelical Women’s Caucus. They were left-leaning evangelicals, but called themselves evangelicals nevertheless.

  • “If you do decide to make the break, you have to be spiritually ready. You have to know what’s going to happen. You have to count the cost before saying anything.

    Truly ORWELLIAN! Applying the Scripture to “count the cost of Following Christ” to ‘count the cost of following the LGBTQ community! Unbelievable. I’ve seen it all now.

  • What is stunning to me is that you can write about bringing people into a “loving relationship with Jesus” while also talking about “trash like the pity party above.” Irony much?

  • That lesson is applicable for anyone who is disgusted with their stance. I respect their right to their beliefs but not their attempts to foist their hateful bigotry on others as mirele posted earlier.

  • After delivering a boatload of sarcasm it is hard for us recipients to feel much like turning to the loving Jesus you think you represent.

  • And he’s charging the people he is hurting the worst for the damage he is doing to them.

  • Captured enemies of the Israelites that were not slaughtered were made into slaves. Paul was OK with the status quo and didn’t urge new converts to free their slaves. Much of Christianity turned the other way regarding slavery for quite a while.

  • But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”
    There is more than ONE Jesus out there. It is for the individual to walk the narrow path and choose the Jesus that Saves in the end. The Wheat will be separated from the Chaff.

  • JP clearly has a lot of issues, but facts logic, and experience are only among them because of his disinterest.

  • So heterosexuality is the same as Jesus? Does Christianity actually stand or fall on the “doctrine” of heterosexuality?

  • Personally, if this is abuse of gay people…

    I would prefer a millennium of this “abuse” to five minutes of your Christian love.

  • Yes, including god’s people the Israelites and in the first century some converts to Christianity. Therefore god had no problem with slavery as long as you weren’t cruel (which admonition was applied to beasts of burden as well).

  • Not at all. Trash designed to pull people further from Christ needs to be adequately identified.
    Ephesians 5: 11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

  • Not sure your point. I know you defend homosexuality. We’ve been over this before. Could you rephrase the question? I don’t understand your point. And btw……….I am just as critical with unrighteous heterosexual marriage. areyoumarried dot wordpress dot com

  • It seems you’ve missed the point. What happened to Peterson and happens to the writers he referenced is “the cost of Following Christ”

    Love and inclusion of those on the margins will always be responded to with anger and power plays

  • You say that preaching Jesus is the same thing as preaching heterosexuality. And that not to be heterosexual means a person is not a Christian. Since when is Heterosexual marriage THE most important thing to being a Christian?

  • I can’t speak for Katie, but for me, it was always the same way I can be heterosexual and be Christian. I can barely go a half hour (or half a minute) without sinning in my heterosexuality. So even if homosexuality in itself is a sin (which I don’t believe anymore), why do I get a pass in my heterosexual sin and still be a Christian, while someone else cant?

  • Can a person be Christian and worship heterosexuality at the same time? Saying that heterosexuality is THE most important criterion of being Christian is being a bit idolatrous.

  • How can a person worship God and money, status, etc, etc. It goes on, but none of those are called unChristian or pushed from the Church. It’s an unhealthy fixation to sexuality and to putting people on the outside. We over value some sin and normalize others.

    So until the “house is in order” I think its probably not wise to push anyone out

  • APPLICATION OF THE TOWER OF BABEL METAPHOR
    The reference holds no power over me: I am skeptical a mundane philosopher, often referred to as “Christ”, if he existed, “taught it this way”, if he ever taught anything at all. I (and the scientific world) surely do not find any convincing sound reasons and zero evidence, in the history of history, to believe in any supernatural theories such as “holy”, “spirit” or “god” much less the efficacy of ancient blood sacrifices of humans. Cherry picking from a book of myth and metaphor to prove any possible arbitrary point is not elucidating. I am more in-line with Deists (but not a Deist) which suggest that the only true church, and the only true bible, is the natural world that is best “read” by thorough and careful application of scientific methods.

  • The idea that being a gay person means “worshiping Gay” is… huh. That makes no sense. I don’t worship my marriage, or worship heterosexuality – but if heterosexuality were a declared sin in the Bible, it wouldn’t make ME any less heterosexual.

  • Floyd is an unrepentant, virulently antigay bigot. You can boil down anything he says to sense if you just remember that.

  • “I’m sure you would agree that the dangerous health issues associated
    with homosexual sex is enough to dissuade anyone from engaging in it.
    Its deadly”

    So, If you had lived prior to the advent of modern medical science, I assume you would have wanted to dissuade everyone from engaging in heterosexual sex, because it was deadly. And, if you had been “successful,” the human species would not exist today.

    Or, maybe cars and trucks should be banned because accidents kill about 35,000 people in the US each year, and cause serious injuries to multitudes of other people.

    If you really wanted to make an impact on a major health issue, you should be campaigning to reverse the obesity epidemic in the US that has been spiraling out of control for years causing a number of serious chronic health consequences, and increasing health insurance costs for everyone.

    And, if you are so concerned about STDs among gay people, you should be doing everything you can to encourage safer sex precautions, and more same-sex marriage.

  • In the old days the good Christians used to torture to death those who disagreed until they saw the error of their ways. So I guess loosing some book sales or speaking engagements is much better. But it has taken the Church centuries to atone for those good old days. I wonder how long it will take the Church to atone for the sort of help the Right is offering today.

  • If you think his loving “jesus” is going to help you, and that my sarcasm was inappropriate, then you are really in trouble my friend. He is hurting homosexuals all the way to Hell, and asking for pity because he chose to do such. That doesn’t warrant much sympathy in my book

  • To Answer your question ” How can you live as a Gay Christian when homosexual behaving and even adopting a gay self identity is against Jesus Himself ” The answer is simple. Your premise that being Gay is against Jesus is in error. The Epistles to the Corinthians were written by Paul not Jesus. Paul or more accurately Saul of Tarsus (Hebrew: שאול התרסי‎, translit. Sha’ul ha-Tarsi‎; Greek: Σαῦλος Ταρσεύς, translit. Saulos Tarseus), who was acclaimed as an Apostle but not one of the twelve. He was a Jew of his time with all the associated prejudices of the culture of the time, but came to Christianity in a miraculous way or so we are told. His claim to apostleship is dubious he converted because the resurrected Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus. Personally his teachings while of value are not even recollections of the primary teachings of Christ. Paul was overly concerned with Gender his teachings on the role of women in the Church bend deeply toward misogyny. If you had to value his teachings as an historical document (although nothing in the bible is anywhere near a primary source) he would be secondary to the other apostles and as no other apostles refer to this topic it is likely Paul’s own prejudice not that of Christ. Fundamental Christianity take the entire bible as inerrant and literal. It never really claims to be because even the reference within it that talk about the value of it for teaching were vague and often written before it was complete. For the most part the Bible is metaphorical in nature and a guide not a literary dictatorship of God. I hope that answers your question. Sadly a combination of beliefs that lead you to the position you now take will likely not allow you to believe in the true message of Christ which was a as noted in John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

  • If a society were to just practice the 10 Commandments would have very little crime, divorce etc. There would be hardly any need for jails or prisons.

  • Yes. Matt.19:4-5 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11. The gay-self-identity stuff has to be repented and repudiated. Jesus doesn’t leave room for gay dating, gay marriage, and gay identity.

    But neither does HE leave SSA people in the lurch. He got something to offer, and it ain’t gayness. He got something that will re-write anybody’s book.

    If people want new self-identity, new healing, new cleansing, new purity, new freedom, no more addictions — all those things we Christians normally say Jesus gives us even when the world says He can’t do squat about anything , then it’s time to get with Jesus and go for broke.

    Don’t care how long it take, nor who-done-me-wrong in the past.
    It’s time to get Power and get Freedom, at all costs.

  • Dear Floyd Lee — This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one: when did you intentionally decide to adopt a heterosexual self-identity? Another question: can you share a story from your upbringing that will help me (and others, potentially) understand where you obtained your view of homosexuality, and more importantly, what’s at stake for you in trying to persuade others that gay self-identity is anti-Jesus? Thank you.

  • Why is this even an issue? It’s quite apparent where God stands on Homosexuality. Follow his rules and not the Rules of Men.

  • Teaching gender & sexuality at Union University as an Associate Professor for 6 years taught me many lessons that to this day make me cringe. But I have no regrets, walking out that door was the only thing I could do and still sleep at night. They would rather turn their backs on those who need our support the most. It’s Soul crushing up there in the upper echelon of “church power”.

  • > I could have used the same extremely concise statement as my original response to Acts 20:28, but I decided to be more generous.
    > I guess to answer your “so”, though, it is that citing scripture is not elucidating. Philosophy is a starting point, though, I’ll give you that.

  • Sandi Luckins, I have to wonder when you decided to forsake Jesus’ teachings and start promoting bigotry. Remember in Micah where we are told that even in Old Testament times, what God required was loving Justice, extending Mercy, and walking humbly with God. Jesus reiterated that with his comments about how we are to treat others. He did not exclude people of other religious beliefs in that. He cites the Good Samaritan as an example of a different nationality/faith showing the love of God. I find nothing in your comments that reflect such a Christian view. But I know that God loves you in spite of what you are stating here.

  • Eventually there is going to be hell to pay for the way these folks are treating trans folks. In doing so they are literally killing children. It is outrageous conduct in an effort to conform the real world to scripture. It seems that two-thirds of what I write these days involves lies and distortions about trans people..

    I have yet to see a conservative Christian with the testosterone to break from the crowd. Not one.

  • Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and
    he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with
    his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact
    that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races
    to mix.

    From the bench in the criminal trial that was the predicate to Loving v. Virginia. People have many ideas about what the Bible says.

  • Tell me, Mr. Gushee, will you also encourage the LGBTQ community that bullies people like Sam Allberry, Wesley Hill, Eve Tushnet, etc., to quit doing so? These amazing SSA folks take the orthodox teaching of scripture as one man/one woman (the foundation of creation) seriously, remembering he is God and we are not. Yet they are regularly bullied by the LGBTQ community for not bowing to the gods of the age. Where is your compassion for them? As far as pastors across the country–if they cave to Screwtape–so be it. Celebrity has nothing to do with my faith or the teaching of scripture. I will love my LGBTQ brother or sister and I will walk with him or her or them, but I cannot say something is okay that is clearly condemned by Jesus (porneia) any more than I can okay heterosexual activity outside the bonds of marriage. The Gospel of Mark would be a good place to begin for repentance, obedience, and holiness for all of us.

  • Hon….if you don’t think it is merciful to tell someone what Christ said about the sin that is sending them to Hell, and helping them to walk away from that….then I’m really not interested in what you say. God loves homosexuals also and wants them to be members of His family.

  • Truthfully, sometimes I do Daniel. And then I repent and start all over. I don’t like people who lead innocent others to their death, calling it “love”, and then I remember, if you were to repent, Christ died for you also.

  • Back in the day, and even still in some circles, the only thing worse to be that a “N” was to be a “N” lover. And all it took to be a “N” lover was to treat, speak to and of “N”. And to take up their cause for decent treatment and respect due any person, might even get you killed.

    There will always be those that feel they must hold themselves above some others, and to defend their high place with verbal, emotional, and or physical violence.

    It doesn’t take much in some circles and among some people to be a Muslim lover, a homosexual lover, an illegal lover, a Mexican lover, or whatever. All it takes it to speak to and about. or take up the cause, of any such ones.

    Anyone breaking ranks in some circles must be not only excluded, but scorned, shamed, humiliated, on their way out the door.

    Does this remind anyone else of the school yard mean girls, that make it clear you cannot be their friends, and welcome in their elite circle, if you dare be anyone else’s friend?

  • Your god has no problems with homosexuals but only with homosexual sex. So an abstenent gay Christian is OK, right? And if, in a moment of weakness, he commits fornication, then repents, he’s still OK, right? Now an unmarried straight man, in a moment of weakness, engages in sex with a women and then repents, he’s still in god’s good graces right? Now what about unmarried Christian couples who live together? If they don’t get married or stop fornicating they’re going to hell. I don’t hear as much or as vehement condemnation of this situation. Or the many other common sins that are condemned in the same verses as is homosexuality. That is hypocritical, is it not?

  • Only homosexual sex is condemned in the bible. You’re letting your own bias slip out.

  • In Africa most of the HIV is from heterosexual sex. You are just looking for excuses.

  • Telling people that they can be something they are not can lead to a person’s death. That is, telling them that they can change their feelings. Behavior can be changed. There was a video on YouTube of a boy who was led to suicide because he tried to change his sexual orientation. He went to all of counselors in order to change. No one in Exodus really changed their feelings. Is it REALLY love to encourage people to hate themselves? Shouldn’t we accept ourselves or at least our feeling? Is that not Grace? I read something by John Wesley where he stated that Faith was more important than repentance. The idea is that if we have faith, God will lead us in the direction we need to go. Wesley agreed with Paul that it is “faith acting through Love.”

  • The fact is that evangelicals consistently point to the same texts I have always pointed to — 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and 1 Cor. 10:13 — to remind all of us on all sides, not to “overvalue some sins and normalize others.”

    But when it comes to homosexual behavior and gay marriage, we got a ton of people who even now are talking & doing both vices from their respective sides of the fence..

    I don’t have a magic wand to solve that problem. I just pray, fight, and keep including those two texts in my own discussions. I trust and pray that people will find their answers therein.

  • The key, as we all sin, is belonging to Jesus to begin with Jim. Jesus said one must be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven – repented of their sin and asked the Lord to lead them.
    An unmarried “straight man” – there is nothing else – sins, he repents and moves on if he belongs to Jesus.
    Are the Christian couple having sex? If so, they are sinning. If they don’t marry or stop, yes, they are unrepentant sinners, all sin leads to death.
    Homosexuality is all over the place right now and is popular because they lie that it is not a sin, and homosexuals need to be protected from that lie, as Christ loves them also and would want some of those people in His family. I hope I helped.

  • I think it only takes a quick review of the past week to see that LGBTQ concerns outweigh a great deal of other concerns. No threats of books getting pulled or someone not valuing the bible when they show no love for their enemies, when they don’t care for the poor, etc. So until the church shows that they care as much about those issues its tough to not see it as overvaluing and normalizing.

  • “Telling people that they can be something they are not can lead to a person’s death.” That is what we keep telling you Daniel. You have to stop.
    I’m sorry to hear about the young boy, my concern is, did he give Christ a chance, as Christ taught that He will forgive and heal us of our sin. (1 Corinthians 6:11 – And such were some of you)
    How can you hate yourself if you are following Christ? That’s a bit silly. Pleasing Christ should be one of our objectives.
    Faith is a gift from God Daniel.

  • Not if a person has sold themselves to gayness, mistakenly believing that Jesus is now **powerless** in this area despite His freeing and cleansing the ancient Corinthians from it. Christ will save anybody, He will totally bless anybody, for HE ain’t picky. But this one monster is a live nuclear Tomahawk, aimed right at you and whatever relationship to Christ you profess. Just that serious, if 1 Cor 6:9-11 be true at all.

    THAT is the real problem, way beyond all the usual debate stuff.

    You gotta choose, go for broke. Half-choosing don’t work for anybody anymore. A raw fatal winner-take-all spiritual battle is here.

  • Sad that the only thing you can do is attack Floyd, and not what he has taught the person. Sad Ben

  • Jesus Christ: “Don’t treat people like garbage”.

    You: “yes, but…”

    Jesus Christ: “I stand with the outcasts against the Pharisees and so should you”

    You: “yes, but…”

    Jesus Christ “love God and your neighbor”

    You: “yes, but…”

    Jesus Christ “And those who did not see me in the least of these are now cast as goats into the lake of fire. Join them goat!”

    You: “What? But Jesus I witnessed to the TRUTH!”

    Jesus Christ “yes, but…”

  • Again, it seems like many care about a few things they think will keep people from going to heaven and don’t care at all about a great many other.

  • No, I’m afraid that you do not. Lying is a sin. You care only that YOU go to heaven. Remember the sheep and the goats?

  • We must be clear. Those who do not stand with Christ and the outcast against the Pharisees are the goats that Christ spoke of in the parable. While God is endlessly merciful, our time on earth is not endless. It is important that we encourage those goats present in the comments to repent of their apostate Christianity. For as they themselves say, sin must be pointed out.

  • Well, the first five would do nothing but advance a religious agenda. So that will not help society. And of the second five, we have laws addressing all of those, so no religion is necessary there, either.
    But since we’re on the subject of your behavior, I think you should pay special attention to what Jesus had to say about judging others, and treating others as you would like to be treated.
    See, society has improved drastically already.

  • Perhaps from your perception on this blog but in r/l the world is fighting against these people trying to push them this way and that way, trying to entice them with some lie about rights – when “rights” won’t get you into the Kingdom of Heaven. We need to fight for these people so that they may be helped.
    I’m sure you’ve seen the same on abortion articles…etc….
    We are here to help people who suffer with homosexual lust to be right with Christ and be His child.

  • Sometimes I repent of calling you trash after I call you trash. And then I go right back to calling you trash again.
    Did I quote you properly?

  • As Floyd reviles and slanders gay people, he will never ever admit that the passages he loves to quote at gay people address his behavior as well.
    That’s the advantage of being his type of Phari,, errr, hypoc — I, mean, Christian.

  • You say that preaching Jesus is the same thing as preaching heterosexuality.

    When have I said that?

    Since when is Heterosexual marriage THE most important thing to being a Christian?
    When have I implied that?

  • When you are dealing with sandi, you are dealing with a sweet little lollipop triple dipped in passive aggressive psycho. Good luck,

  • Sandi Luckins, I have to wonder when you decided to forsake Jesus’ teachings and start promoting bigotry.
    LOL!
    Hey James……have you stopped beating your wife? Your statement/question was absurd.
    Was Paul wrong for rebuking and expelling the sexually immoral in the fellowship at Corinth? 1 Corinthians 5

  • The words used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 do NOT mean homosexual attractions. So therefore it is NOT a promise that people who have same sex attractions will switch to opposite sex attractions. Even IF it does mean some kind of MALE homosexual activity, it does NOT mean same sex attraction.

  • You contradict yourself. You say faith is earned by being heterosexual and then you say it is a gift. Like I told Floydlee, 1 Corinthians 6:9 is NOT talking about same sex ATTRACTIONS, it is talking about some kind of behavior. Jesus never told people that they couldn’t be who they are to be his disciples. For instance, Zealots didn’t have to stop being Zealots, tax collectors did not have to stop being tax collectors, nor did Prostitutes have to stop being prostitutes. ALSO, people didn’t have to stop being Eunuchs to be Christian either, although they were excluded in Deuteronomy 23:1. It is like saying to be a Christian, you have to have a certain color of eyes or of skin. It is silly to think that Jesus changes our eye or skin color.

  • Ok, but I’ve not seen any where near the outrage and “help” for those who show no love to their enemies. If the bible is clear on homosexuality as sin (I’d debate that but never the less) it is crystal clear on love of our enemies and no one is getting kick out of leadership or the church for not loving their enemies. In many cases it’s praised as defending the faith and country.

  • Thanks for the “Fox alert”. When they lead off with scripture, it often turns out to be a red-flag for something disturbing like that.

  • I’m not judging you, dear. I’m informing you, as I have been informed by so many Christians of your type.
    In any case, as I am not a Christian– and thank the god I don’t believe in for that– I am no more bound by your religion’s rules than any member of your religion is– as you and your ilk demonstrate to clearly every single day.

  • There is no debate required here.

    Either one understands “love thy neighbor” is an unconditional command to treat everyone with civility, respect and decency or you look for excuses to ignore it and find pretext for malice through religion.

    Only an abusive, dishonest, and immoral person can pretend “love” means demeaning, attacking, defaming, ostracizing, discriminating against, assaulting or murdering others (or condoning such actions through silence or denial).

  • So that is your excuse for trespasses and attacks upon the lives of others. You really should stop bearing false witness that you are concerned and respect others people.

  • Honestly? Lifeway Books did the right thing. They got Eugene Peterson’s attention. Got Merritt’s attention. And Gushee’s attention. No joke.

    Everybody’s used to the usual “comment section” ping-pong, or even an actual rebuttal article (like Denny Burk’s). Peterson was ready for all that. So was Merritt. Gushee too. And the gay activists too. Nobody cared.

    But when “one of the largest providers of … Christian resources in the world” (Wiki), said that a fatal line was crossed and they wouldn’t shrug their shoulders on it — then Eugene Peterson is all ears. C’est la vie.

    “The issue of gay marriage is not a second order issue like disagreements over baptism. Paul says that those who practice sexual immorality cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-11) …. To get this wrong has eternal consequences.” — Denny Burk.

  • Was a that a trespass upon your life? It seemed like a response prompted in conversation.

  • Yawn…..oh kay….here we start with Daniels’ split hair, twist what is said, crap starting….bye bye. When you get right with Christ, let me know.

  • Pretty much at times, yes. But then, I repent again and try to help him. Do you think this helped him Ben?

  • And speaking of people who reject 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13,
    I can’t help but notice that two of my replies to Jason Evans’s post today — as well as one reply back from Jason to me — have all disappeared.

    I do not know why the posts have vanished, and I’m not one to accuse anybody of anything (at least not on the issue of vanishing posts).

    What I do know, is that it’s probably still possible to *indirectly* reply to Jason’s posts, and this website offers NO shortage of opportunities to discuss the Bible’s position — Christ’s position — vis-à-vis Jason’s position on this issue.

  • maybe. It’s funny, you liberals fight so hard about people being downtrodden, and insulted, then, turn around and do the same thing……lol….

  • “Only an abusive, dishonest, and immoral person can pretend “love” means demeaning, attacking, defaming, ostracizing, discriminating against, assaulting or murdering others (or condoning such actions through silence or denial).”

    Oh, you must mean Yahweh. Yeah, he *can* be a prick.

  • Aye. Where shall we deposit our gay citizens so that they may be put to death….er, “disposed of”?

    Shall we kill them ourselves, or is it up to the police to do so? And what about your god’s position on those who plant crops of two different kinds side-by-side? Shall we include them with our gay citizens so that they may be disposed of, also?

    Ya know, these Levitical teachings…they’re something, ain’t they? I mean, if we follow them like you insist, ain’t going to be many of us left to put to death the sinners who haven’t followed your stupid “rules”.

  • Ya know, your Jesus never healed an amputee. In fact, your god never did, either.

    Funny, that.

  • If I am “splitting,” give some evidence that 1 Corinthians 6:9 is talking about feelings and attractions. Just attacking me as trash is not making a case for your point of view.

  • Noooo…..I’ve shown you countless times Daniel and you are not interested in the truth – and it was 1 Cor. 6:11.

  • You ask: When? My answer is: It was 5:45 a.m. this morning, when I got up for work. Yesterday, it was 6:00 a.m., I woke up and begun preparing for church.

    This reply to you IS sincere, btw, based directly on 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor. 10:13. Every day, we make **choices** towards or away from various sin behaviors, INCLUDING homosexual behavior. Your choices reinforce your direction. (Hat tip directly to the Bible, and on the secular side, to psychologist Dr. Jeffrey Satinover.) But absent the grace & power of God through Jesus Christ, any of us can be the next Barney Frank or Ellen or RuPaul.

    1 Cor 10:13 says explicitly that these temptations are “Common To Humanity”, which means ALL of us, not just some of us.
    (“Oh, but I’m 50 years old and I ain’t never had those feelings.” “Yes sir, but I (Floyd) have listened to older men publicly testify that they were straight just like you but then came out at 51.“)
    It’s always a choice. So choose Christ. And don’t half-choose Him either.

  • In the bible homosexuality is not a sin, homosexual sex is. Show me scripture that refutes my statement.

  • You’ve said it, of course. You don’t think it applies to you. It’s not reivling and slandering when YOU do it.

  • Homosexual is not discussed because it is basically a short form for ‘people who experience s/s attraction” There is no such thing as ‘homosexuals’ but the word fits in much easier than defining it every time Jim.
    Also, homosexual lust is also referred to. Same thing. (Romans 1:24)
    Essentially Jim, everyone is ‘straight’. Christ defined anything else as unnatural. But, there are people who give in to homosexual lust. I hope I said that right….

  • Here is an ANTI Gay piece about homosexuality which understands the change in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 in terms of CONDUCT and not feelings. http://www.livingout.org/the-bible-and-ssa It understands the change in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as mainly that of LIFESTYLE, not feelings or temptations. For instance, it states, “However ingrained it may be in someone’s behavior, homosexual conduct is not inescapable. It is possible for someone living a practicing gay lifestyle to be made new by God. Temptations and feelings may well linger. That Paul is warning his readers not to revert to their former way of life suggests there is still some desire to do so. ” So even this very anti gay piece agrees that 1 Corinthians 6:9 is NOT talking a change of feelings, but rather of conduct. As I have stated many times, I DON’T have any trouble believing that people change their conduct. But no one changes their basic attractions. Would you say this piece is “splitting” when it speaks mainly of change of conduct in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and not feelings?

  • Actually, sex outside of marriage (fornication) is condemned too, as well as, say, adultery, incest, messing around with Fido, etc. There are just some sexual situations that really aren’t God’s design and will for human sexuality and family. (I’m sure Eugene Peterson knows this already.)

  • So here’s an interesting question or two I’d like to ask of you. You’ve studied 1 Cor. 6:9-11 just like I have.

    If homosexual behavior is NOT against Jesus, if the gay-self-identity and the homosexual behavior are compatible with Jesus in the slightest, exactly why did Jesus wash, cleanse, sanctify, and otherwise **remove** homosexuality AWAY FROM the ancient Corinthians who came to Him by faith?

    Why did he wash ALL of it off of them (along with other various behaviors mentioned), and why was His extreme removal of this thing necessary as part of their justification and sanctification in God (1 Cor 6:11)?

  • Oh no you wouldn’t. Let’s just be honest. You have a thing against “the character of Christ”, because you have a thing against Christ Himself.

  • All the time. Especially when it isn’t your sin. Love thy neighbor is unconditional. There are no stipulations and mitigating statements to the command. Besides what you want to give yourself to outright ignore it and be a malicious bigot.

    If you want to make excuses in order to treat people like crap with impunity, go ahead. Just don’t pretend you are being moral, decent or showing love. That would be dishonest. If you want respect because you cloak your personal bigotry in religious trappings, get bent. It won’t happen. you won’t deserve it.

  • I understand, but when it focuses on a few “sins” all the time while systemically ignoring so many more it becomes harder to not see it as targeted attacks. If all sin was treated like Thai and pastors books were pulled and jobs in jeopardy it would be different. But they aren’t.

  • Phillip the article is about the sin of homosexuality. You want to hear about what Christ thought about other sin, go to another sin article, and I’m sure someone is trying to protect people there also.

  • No one’s getting kicked out of church for acting like a goat. No books pulled, no membership taken away. There is a lot of preaching that shows little love for one’s enemy and still their jobs are fine. So it’s hard to believe it’s not targeted and wildly hypocritical of the church.

  • Its not religion which compels people to act like dbags. It just gives a pretext for them. To weasel out of taking personal responsibility for their views. Anyone who says, “it’s not me it’s gods word” is full of crap. Out of the literally hundreds of interpretations of scripture for a multitude of views, that was the one that you choose t identify with.

    Nobody needs scripture to justify actions which are good to others and decent. It is almost a requisite to justify actions which are malicious and evil.

  • Meanwhile, there’s always the Pauline instruction of 1 Cor. 7:21….

    “Are you a slave? Don’t let that worry you — but if you get a chance to be free, take it.”

    I don’t think we blacks needed any Greek parsing to figure out Paul’s words.

  • I’m saying topic always exposes a huge hypocrisy in the church. This “sin” matters more. No one’s books or jobs are at stake for acting like a goat. Until that happens we have massive lit’s in our eyes to sort before we can speak to LGBTQ community, especially if we are liking ppl out as many do. Until the church cares as much about our use of money / time as our sex lives it’s hypocritical targetting.

  • Brilliant argument, Sandi. Your “yawn” is the best argument I’ve ever seen for the meaning of words.

  • How can anyone say it is really that simple? Really? You, nor anyone else, have not seen the original scriptures. The closest anyone has come to the original scriptures is still outdated by over 200 years. To top that off, of the over 5,000 copies that have been discovered, no two are alike. So which of these is truly God’s inspired words? If the Bible’s interpretations are so simple, why are there over 33,000 different denominations of Christians? I know a lot of good Christians. I know a lot of good Atheists. I know a lot of good Buddhists. Christians do not have exclusive knowledge revealed by God. I was raised in the Catholic Church. Fortunately for me, I had more love for God then any religion could ever hope to have. All religions are exclusive, ALL of them. If you choose to follow the path of compassion and love, you will learn that Love has no bounds, be it gay or straight and I am 100% certain that God blesses any two people who commit their love in marriage. To believe otherwise, whether it be 2000 years ago or today, is simply ignorance and bigotry.

  • Reviler IS listed as something which will keep someone out of heaven in 1 Corinthians 6:9. You and Sandi are clearly guilty of this sin.

  • What I perhaps have not explained well enough…..
    The culture that we are in right now is hurting homosexuals left and right. They are “loving” them right onto the road to hell, and making money on their backs – look at some of the homosexual agencies – running to the bank, and celebrating as the homosexual get another “win”, which just further prompts them away from God’s truth. But, they cannot negate God’s judgment.
    Your typical Christian comes in, caring about these people being lied to, abused, used and realizes the homosexual needs their help to know that they actually are sinning against themselves, and God. So, we show scripture detailing such.
    I don’t see marches endorsing divorce, abortion, or whatever sin may be on someone’s favourite’s list.
    You don’t see a lot of newspaper articles on the subjects where people are encouraging precious people to give up reason, hope for salvation and to march along with them endorsing these sins. Yes, you will sometimes see some silly women endorsing abortion but abortion must not make as much money for it’s “advocates” as homosexuality does. Homosexuals are a cash crop and their “advocates” are running to the bank on their backs – abusing the homosexuals worse than any Christian could be condemned for. At least we want them at peace with Christ.
    They have become a political tool to be used at whomever is trying to get the popular vote. Do you think these people care one iota about whether these homosexuals spend eternity in Hell?
    So, some of us have taken the initiative to help them.

  • You DO revile other people. This is something according to 1 Corinthians 6:9 that will exclude you from heaven.

  • Briefly, see 1 Cor 10:13 and also 1 Cor. 6:9-11. You are not a lesbian tonight, and I am not a gay man tonight, but NOT because we have some magical natural special automatic immunity to homosexual (or any other sin) temptations. ALL temptations are common to humanity (1 Cor. 10:13).

    It’s quite possible for you or I to start making a series of freewill choices, saying “yes” to smaller temptations, that reinforce and pave the way to embracing the big temptations, even to the point where it starts feeling all “natural” and “born that way” to you and me, no matter what the Bible says.
    “Common To Humanity,” is no joke.

    So never say what you are NOT capable of doing, outside of God’s grace and mercy upon you. And don’t forget your daily free-will choices, in line with God’s Word, that lead you AWAY FROM homosexual behavior.

  • What is a “reviler” in your view, Daniel? How does a person specifically cross that line in THIS particular topic that we’re discussing? Please answer, since you are making the accusation.

    (Not attacking you for making the accusation itself; I just wanna see your rational & scriptural support to back up your accusation.)

  • Sorry Daniel, but your position clearly overlooks James 1:15….

    “These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.”

    So you honestly don’t get to quarantine homosexual behavior from homosexual attractions. The behaviors come from giving in to the desires, the attractions.

    The attractions (let’s just call them by their real name — temptations!), lead to the behaviors. But 1 Cor 10:13 offers you a way out.

  • I invite you to the same two questions that I’m asking Daniel. Never really thought to ask ’em before, but they seem timely and reasonable.

  • James doesn’t say God removes ALL temptations. Perhaps helps us not to let them get the better of us.

  • I think can answer this for Bill by using his own words. “Personally his teachings while of value are not even recollections of the primary teachings of Christ. “

  • You’re confused. Corinthians are epistles, supposedly of Paul. Jesus is referred to there, but does not appear there, take any action there, or speak there.

  • One may have “false gods.” in one’s lusts, whether for money, fame, or even sex, but to say some people “worship Gay” is a stretch especially from one who worships wrath.

  • Again, another story you tell yourself about me, and another story you tell yourself about gay people.

    I have no more a thing against the character of Christ than I have a thing about the character of any other god the world has ever spawned.

    In fact, my only wish is that more Christians had less the character ofvfloyd Lee, Tony Perkins, Jerry falwell, and franklin graham, and more the character of Christ.,

  • This is an idiotic assertion. The writer has no basis for it; it’s just another uninformed opinion.

  • So much so that the founding father of Western Hemisphere slavery and genocide, Cristobal Colon AKA Columbus, got a Catholic fraternal organization named after him (Knights of Columbus).

  • Yes and no. The Hellenes (Greek/Roman merchant class) of which Paul was one regarded it as an exploitive relationship like prostitution but tolerated it regarding the married man who strayed, but disdained prostitutes of any gender especially those representing pagan cults [not meaning what it means today, in fact, sects is probably more correct].

  • No God worthy of the title would send anyone to “hell.” If it did, no person no character would want to go to hebbin to be with such an evil being.

  • there is another option: serious mental health problems. They don’t have to abusive, dishonest, and immoral, they could simply be insane.

  • He doesn’t “send” a person to Hell. One chooses Hell by rejecting Christ. If you don’t want to be with Him in this lifetime, He grants you the respect of not imposing on your wishes in the next.

  • Correction: Paul says swindlers, slanderers, drunkards, the greedy, thieves, homosexual offenders, male prostitutes, adulteres, idolataters, along with the, one, you mentioned from your referenced scripture. Romans 1 mentions gossips, boasters, and arrogance in a long similar list to describe those who are deserving of death as God’s righteous decree. Where is the outrage from the Denny Burks of the world?
    I don’t have a problem with how we apply those verses to 90% of the people who made the list.
    My contention is this the scriptures you always reference say as much about the 90% of church membership we can’t seem to do without as it does about the 10% that we’re willing to kick out.
    There is something on that list that most of us find disgusting, us straight folk know what it is, and it ain’t gossiping. We transfer that disgust for an act to a person and once we do that we justify the disgust by giving it God’s blessing.

    The world’s not blind, eff us for our contempt of some people if we don’t change.

  • If this false god is claimed to have set up such a cosmology it is no better than Cronus who ate his own children.

  • Oh, but I am VERY guilty of it, just ask Ben.

    (Or am I? That’s why I’m exploring this for a minute.)

    One small item: Every time I click on your link, it sends me to the definition and discussion of “Malakos” (“Malakoi”), instead of “Loidoros.”

    Now you and I (and Ben too!) know that the room temperature might heat up too quickly if we all start talking about “Malakoi”, so allow me to instead put up your BlueLetterBible link again. This time it should fall directly on “Loidoros.”

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3060&t=NKJV

  • Jesus obviously is taking some sort of action(s) in verse 6:11. What action(s) would you say He is taking upon the ancient Corinthians there?

  • Actually, I do. As a newbie, I’d have agreed wit’cha. And there was an initial time in which I mostly just tried to listen to Ben without reply. (Plus, we weren’t tied to Disqus back then, and a reply could mysteriously vanish if it was mysteriously judged as being too stressful on gay posters or bloggers.)

    But I’m not a newbie anymore. Ben and I have now shared this little sports arena for years. A “long-standing cudgel-match”, somebody posted.

    You get to learn exactly what direction(s) your opponent’s cudgel is swinging. And if you watch carefully — be careful now! — you can sometimes see Ben’s trajectory aimed straight towards Somebody Upstairs, NOT down here. Three guesses as to the Intended Target, yes? (And that ain’t no “reviling” — that’s just respecting an opponent enough to be honest on things.)

  • That’s not what I mean by acting like a goat. I mean the versus that say “I was hungry and you didn’t feed me, cold and you didn’t …” nothing in there about homosexuality. So until acting like a goat there gets people kicked out of the church, its just blatant hypocrisy that claims a focus on sin that is just not true. Not until we see these blatant sins matter.

  • I think its interesting that people are making money off of their homosexual support when one of the many problems for Peterson was that his books would no longer be sold. Seems it would hurt him to support LGBTQ people, not the other way around.

    We do however see parades and marches to supports sin. Look no further than the President and the support he gets from Christians. Look at the way we support capitalism and materialism. Again, Jesus was, in my reading, super clear on a few topics (homosexuality is not one of them). Love your enemy, care for the poor and those on the margins. No one has been kicked out for not doing those things. On the contrary many have been for trying.

    But this isn’t going anywhere. Christians have an ax to grind with LGBTQ people. I don’t get it. Until our concern for sin address the massive elephants in the room, it is hard to see it as more than purposeful targeting.

  • “Awwwww….you decided to forsake Jesus for the promotion of sin” – Interesting statement and very common among self-righteous so-called Christians. No one is promoting sin – anymore than Jesus was promoting drunkenness when he turned water into wine at the wedding at Cana. You, my friend, would have stood at the well with a stone in hand. You lack compassion, empathy, mercy, love for your neighbor, and intelligence. You are no follower of Jesus but most definitely a follower of an ancient and dysfunctional religious organization.

  • for heaven’s sake, don’t equiparate your own bruised snowflake sensitivities with your persecution of your gay brothers and sisters, sons and daughters

  • Jesus was soft on gays — the case of the centurion’s pais speaks volumes; as the only miracle in the Q source it has a good chance of reflecting the actual attitudes of the historical Jesus. Not only “who am I to judge?” but “greater faith than this I have not found in Israel”.

  • “I don’t see marches endorsing divorce, abortion, or whatever sin may be on someone’s favorite’s list” – You don’t see these marches because they have already been endorsed by law. Your reasoning is at best, childish. I have yet to figure out why Christians can claim Jesus died for all our sins to save all of us and still think they need to save everyone else but themselves as well.

  • Who says you and I are getting a free pass for sin? Certainly not the Bible (Rom. 3:23, Rom. 6:23). God hasn’t repealed one bit of it.

    But you seem to be acknowledging that our “heterosexual sins” are REAL, and you seem to be taking them seriously, and you seem to be NOT denying that they are real sins and REAL damaging, capable of bringing true disaster. (Well, the Bible lists one more damaging sin too: “homosexual behavior.”)

    You also seem to be agreeing that God provided the Lord Jesus Christ to pay your full price and mine too, pay ALL our punishment for our sins on the Cross, to save our souls, clean up our lives, and give us eternal life. (John 3:16, 1 Cor. 6:9-11.)

    But no, there’s no free passes. God is just, and He ain’t blind. He just creates new mercies, undeserved favors & kindness, and compassion on you and me literally every day. (That’s the ONLY reason why you and I are alive, see Lam. 3:22-23). He can free us, heal us, and make us whole.

  • Boyfriend? What boyfriend?

    Ain’t no boyfriend there, not even a bromance.

    Just a simple “pais”, a servant, one who was highly regarded.

    Not any BF mess. Nor spare tire, nor fresh meat. The Bible don’t say that at all, nor gives the slightest hint of any homosexual activity or attraction.

  • You don’t seem to *personalize* your opposition to homosexuality as much as Sandi does. I don’t come away from you feeling as abused as I do from Sandi.

  • Reminds me of when people who came out against race segregation…sometimes even as some vague hope sometime in the future…were exiled from the Bible Belt. (And were lucky if their house wasn’t bombed before they left.)

    Which meant they took their talents elsewhere.

  • Pobrecitos, selling out their community to become the feted darlings of “conservative” bigots.

    Disparaging loving minority relationships as just being about alleged God condemned “sexual activity” has been done before, as any of us older people who had been in an interracial relationship back in the bad old days can tell you.

  • Right…as always, “conservative” Christians like you know what’s best for “those people.”

    Just like “conservative” Christians just knew what was best for Black people back when I was young.

  • So don’t worry about me……..Mr Gushee wrote about himself.
    I’ll never leave you or forsake you Jesus said.
    That’s all you and your friends here need to know so there’s no need for anyone to worry.

    We should realize the importance of new and better things that await us all —
    …forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth to those (good) things which are ahead……….Philippians 3:13
    I put ‘good’ in there because that’s the kind of stuff the Holy Comforter does so well.

  • Being gay is not a sin, you can’t help being gay just like you can’t help being blonde or red headed and God loves us all peace be with you

  • Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
    (Rom. 16:17-20 NKJV)

  • A few questions for you all. Can anyone tell me what the original language was written in the bible? Does the real original bible still exist ?

  • It isn’t “just a question” though; it’s a red herring, straw man and false dichotomy all rolled into one. Your very ‘question’ is actually an assumption; that the issue is about “worship of gay” vs. worship of God.
    The scriptural case against homosexuality as it exists today is paper-thin, as has been demonstrated time and again.

  • I think it really depends what you mean by ‘gay’. The secular world uses it to mean someone who has (unchosen and usually lifelong and immutable) attraction to the same sex and no attraction to the opposite sex.

    Often Christians define gay as the perpetrators of the five clobber passages.

    I have no doubt that there are some people who reside in both categories, but most in either category do not reside in the other.

    Particularly problematic are the two sin lists of Paul. Out of all the Bible translations relatively few translate this as ‘homosexual’ (I’m distinguishing this from translations that say ‘active homosexual’) and yet pretty well on this basis alone has admitting to being gay become a sin for evangelicals.

    I think we need a more honest look at who gay people actually are and a more honest look at what scripture actually says (and who it says it to/about)

  • The majority of Christians worldwide would consider baptism a first order issue.

    I think part of the problem is the Internet because we’ve all been living in bubbles of belief for decades unaware of what people believe in the church down the street. Now we discover that what we held dear as core Christian values are dismissed by our brothers and sisters down the street as secondary issues.

  • Evangelicals and Catholics in the last few decades have been proving that Christianity is based in prejudices. Their message is based in judgment, condemnation, fear, and hate. I do not see how any gay person or minority would want anything to do with Christianity and this so called Jesus who hates them. Evangelicals and Catholics have been teaching for a long time that Jesus loves some but not all, and their message is Jesus actually hates. The Bible is a useful weapon to attack a whole group of people and they have set their sites on other groups of people.

  • … except that I’m not gay.

    If you sat me down and hooked me up to brain activity monitors and showed me a series of images of men and women in various suggestive poses, what you would find is that my brain activity would respond to the male but not the female poses. I’m just… not gay. It’s not a “series of choices”. It’s being heterosexual. People who are gay are just homosexual. It’s an aspect of their identity, not “a choice”.

    The myth of “lifestyle” is one of the most damaging falsehoods the Christian world continues to perpetuate, against all scientific evidence and despite the fact that being gay is so clearly far beyond “choice”.

    So, no, it’s NOT possible for me to become gay through saying yes to “smaller temptations”. I’m not gay. And gay people aren’t straight.

  • Much of this self-justification by close-minded evangelicals has to do with their definition of sin. For a few it is simply naiveté. Look in the Bible like a magic eight ball and it says this is sin so it’s sin. No thinking required. But, sadly, most are deliberately obtuse. They know very well they are perverting the Bible’s teaching about sin in order to excuse their discrimination against LGBT Christians who display the loving, godly life of the Holy Spirit just like any other Christ centered Christian. This is a very ancient, very cruel taboo. Deeply rooted in all religions.

  • No one is”Worship gay” No one worships heterosexual either. I get you point but it sounds rediculous.

  • I don’t agree that it is a “blanket” condemnation of behavior, but rather when it is compounded by other sins, such as idol worship.

  • This is fake news. I watched evangelicals all over the spectrum in their responses to the Peterson interview. There are these things called the internet and social media that have been game changers for the whole spectrum of views. Your confirmation bias allows you to paint all evangelicals with the same brush. But then we find you quoting yourself. The truth will be found in whether you check your Amazon.com ranking in the next 48 hours.

  • What did anyone expect? Evangelicals always go crazy when money shows up. That’s why so many of them follow the so-called prosperity gospel. That’s why so many of them look to a narcissistic billionaire as, literally, God’s representative on earth.

    The evangelical icon is green and has a president’s picture on it.

  • Lifeway books did the right thing.

    Oh the irony. BIg Evangeical Goliath will brook no dissent, and will crush the opposition.

  • You already said you had nothing to be forgiven for.Yawn. Lol. Gawgawdgawdgawdgawdgawdgawd.

  • You should ask Floyd if he cares. Reviling and slandering gay people is what he does every day. Except that in his definition, it’s not reviling and slandering. That way, he gets out of hell free.

  • You say you are getting a free pass for sin– the sins of reviling and slandering. Everyday, as you obsess over homosexuality, you revile and slander gay people.

    Sometimes, I almost wish your god was real, just so I could see your face when he says “depart from me, I never knew you.”

  • I am a African American gay male who is also a Deacon in the Episcopal Church. I thank David for his work before the LGBTQ issue eclipsed it and I thank him for the work that he is now called to do. The answer is always to love all without distinction and we know that is true.

  • No One worships Gay. We worship GOD and GOD, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Because we know Jesus we know what GOD is like. From there I can only love all of GOD’s creations. If I find my brother and I are at odds, we are taught to reconcile first before we come to GOD. That means both of us in peace with each other.

  • You don’t worship “gay”. You ARE gay. Do you “worship” ‘straight’ ? Or were you just born that way?

  • You’re Canadian? I’m half Canadian. My grandparents on my mother’s side were from Ontario. They immigrated here to the USA in the early 1900’s. Mom was born in MI. (Funny – you don’t sound Canadian – LOL.)

  • Jesus said he came not to bring peace but division. The context was households but the principal can be expanded to larger communities.

  • Yes, I’ve worked on the accent for quite a while…..lol…..
    I’m across from Detroit in Windsor.

  • I’ve changed skirts, luckily for you. Your sweat hiding behind them was getting to be a bit much…

  • Fundamentalists treat same-sex fornication much more harshly than they do heterosexual fornication while the Bible condemns both equally. As I said before, your bias is showing.

  • Ah, so it’s conservative Christians – the ones who attempt to follow God, who are the victimizers…..I see.
    I know nothing about your difficulties and Christians, as I do not live in the US. From what i have learned, it was the democrats pushing the harm, and they are usually not conservative Christians – please correct me if I’m wrong.

  • The Bible does condemn both equally. Now it’s time for Christians like Merritt, Gushee, Peterson, etc, to start **agreeing** with their Bibles.

  • Because to be saved by Christ means that one needs to renounce their sin and ask Him to be their Lord, Jim – otherwise, they are not saved by Christ.

  • from what I have seen on this site, I wouldn’t have learned much but to hate Christians. And, where you are wrong, there are several I read intently learning what they have taught. What about you? Do you learn, or are you just here to downgrade people who want to glorify Christ?

  • Honey, there is no need to persecute homosexuals, my friend. They do a fine enough job on their own.

  • Philip, we all support homosexuals. We try to help them to have a relationship with Jesus. We expose the lies of the enemy who wants them in Hell.
    We expose the lies of the enemy making money on the homosexual’s backs while they send them on their way to Hell.
    I don’t live in the US and will not get into their presidential politics.
    My first paragraph explains your last statement.

  • I don’t know the truth of your statement. I have never kicked a homosexual out of my church. They need to be there so they can learn that they need to renounce their sin so they can become Christian.

  • Removed from leadership, asked to leave, renounced membership, entirely cut off from their family at the teaching of the church. Many are taught change or get out.

    But the church doesn’t seem to operate that way when it comes to the things that mattered, in my study, most to Jesus. It’s confusing. If you’re gay you can’t lead a church but if you have never visited those in prison you’re fine. Almost seems like the church has it’s priorities out of wack.

  • Perhaps you do (though your posts here would make me question what support means), but the church does not. Some pockets do but THE CHURCH does not. They treat them differently and harmfully under a guise of rejecting sin while allowing many other sins to prosper and grow in the church. We have been called hypocrites for a long time and in this case its entirely warranted.

  • Actually, the church wants them to go to Heaven, along with the rest of us, Philip. The difficulty with homosexuals and the church is that homosexuality is unrepentant sin, and they cannot become Christian, until they repent of their sin and let Jesus do the work. Most homosexuals have been brainwashed by the people making money on them that their sin is innate and immutable – killing unknown numbers of precious, vulnerable children – when Christ taught that He will heal us of our sin – 1 Corinthians 6:11.
    People who are not members of a church may not be able to work in church “roles” until they become Christian.

  • They should not be in leadership to begin with Philip – until they become Christian. One would want Christians leading a Christian church. That only makes sense.
    They need to be with the Christians in the church to learn how badly they need Jesus and how He will help them.

  • St Paul was not Jesus. Jesus ate with the sinners and loved them, and eve said sinners would get into heaven before self righteous people. Besides, we are all sinners, so why is beinggaya worse sin than being judgmental ,or hateful, or not loving your neighbour? My hunch is it is because being gay is something most of us don’t have to wrestle with ,so we are free to scorn those who do. Jesus never condemned homosexuality but he did condemn hate and cruelty and hypocrisy.

  • I can now see that you have no interest whatsoever in genuine dialogue and critical self- reflection. You simply need a platform from which to deliver your self-righteous, banal monologues. Unfortunately the folks on this thread have handed a platform over to you, and have accomplished nothing more than enabling and perpetuating your dysfunctional, unenlightened babble.

  • And some of these same conservative Christians will turn around and lament how people are being “silenced” for opposing same-sex marriage.

  • You do understand that Corinthians is NOT the words of Jesus, right? This was a letter written by a Johnny-come-lately follower that did not ever meet Jesus himself, just tried to make his own beliefs fit in with what he thought were the teachings of Christ. Jesus’ teachings were clear and unambiguous. You must love others and you don’t have the right to judge them. He did not make exceptions and did not set up any group as acceptable for people to treat as outcasts.

    If you are going to take your instruction (or hide your poor attitude) in the words of Paul, you should step up and declare yourself a follower of Paul and stop trying to convince yourself and others that you are Christian. Right now, you sound like you have closed your heart and mind to Jesus and are demanding that others follow you down the path of error.

  • No. Christians believe the entire Bible is the words of Jesus. If you deny this there really isn’t any point to arguing whether homosexual behavior is godly or not. Just do whatever you want.

  • If you follow Christ, you follow HIS words, which were to love one another without judgement and without trying to make a distinction that some are more ‘worthy’ of love than others. There is no place in the Gospels that Jesus says anything about rejecting homosexuals (or any other group that you wish to pick out). If you are finding it in any other part of the Bible and elevating that above the clear and unambiguous directives of Jesus in the Gospels, you are NOT following Christ, you are using other parts of the Bible to excuse your own prejudices and poor behavior while trying to convince yourself you are Christian. Sorry, bud. That is still not Christianity.

  • If those of you who hate on LGBTQ people put half that energy into feeding the hungry and housing the houseless, the world would be a better place…but no, the self righteous haters, using an old book to justify their hatefulness, are so obsessed with who loves who and who has sex with who…really, who is the pervert…Floyd…? How about this. Focus on doing good work in the world and leave people alone if you are unwilling to be kind. Christianity seems to me nothing more than a nest of hypocrites and liars.

  • In America, it was “conservative” Evangelicals of the “Bible Belt” who created and supported the “Jim Crow” terrorist racial apartheid states.

    Yes, they were Democrats, but Democrats came in “Dixiecrat,” moderate and liberal persuasions. Outside of the South, Democrats supported civil rights legislation more than the Republicans, though the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a bipartisan effort.

    Which was opposed by the 1964 Republican presidential candidate, Barry Goldwater. Starting in 1964 with the most well known and powerful racist Dixiecrat, Strom Thurmond. they started to migrate to the Republican party.

  • Like I said we’re going in circles. Whatever reason anyone keeps LGBTQ people out of church in any capacity (membership, leadership, attendance), there is equal reason then to keep anyone out who act like a goat does in Jesus parable. But we don’t keep them out. So until the church deals with that massive log, its hard to trust the way it approaches anyone else’s spec.

  • Can a goat be a Christian? It seems by your definition no.

    If a gay person cannot because of unrepentant sin than anyone who fails to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, visit the prisoner, etc is in the same boat as a gay person. But they aren’t being kicked out of leadership, why do you think that is?

  • If God is going to separate the sheep from the goats, then no, a goat is not a Christian.
    A homosexual is not a Christian because knowing they are sinning – as much as we deny it – the Law is written on our hearts, and again, knowing the are sinning and failing to repent is what is against them.

  • The only people keeping homosexual out of the body of Christ, is the homosexual. They do not repent of their sin.

  • My understanding is this is all democratic related. Yes there were Christians involved but just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean they are. A Christian follows what Christ taught and when they learn they are wrong, they repent.

  • It’s amazing to me the number of people who respond like this column when someone renounces the teachings of Christ while still attempting to call themselves a follower of Christ. It’s that mindset that nothing at all is sin and nothing at all is wrong, just believe whatever you want and still call yourself a Christian. The author of this column is more interested in making kids who claim to be LGBTQ happy than following Christ. That’s fine for him if that’s how he chooses to live his life, but that’s not following Christ.

    You can see in this column his hate toward people who did not just blindly support the author’s desires to abandon Scriptural teachings and had the audacity to tell him “no, you’re wrong.” He choses to call it “rejectionist Christianity” in some apparent attempt to self-justify his flaunting of Scripture and Christ’s teachings; it doesn’t justify his actions and it doesn’t make him a follower of Christ.

    God set the standards. Not David Gushee nor anyone else. If you choose to reject it, then don’t expect people who don’t reject it to pat you on the head, tell you how great you are and to keep it up. I’m sure this will get thrown into his pile of “ad hominem” attacks rather than viewed through a truthful lens, but it’s an epidemic in America of people like Mr. Gushee who think they can reject anything they want from God to make the world love them…and then attack those who follow God because those who have rejected Him will continue to cheer you on for it.

  • The admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for widows & orphans, etc. comes from the same Scriptures that say homosexual activity is sinful and Christians should not engage in it. So if you reject the 2nd part of that, you cannot use the first part to attack others because you’re saying the text is false.

    And you need to learn that disagreement with your point of view is not the definition of hate.

  • Ok, so until the church treats all those who do not actively feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, invite in the stranger, cloth the naked, visit the sick and in prison because “they are sinning – as much as we deny it – the Law is written on our
    hearts, and again, knowing the are sinning and failing to repent is what
    is against them.” the way the do LGBTQ people, I have no interest in hearing all the judgment placed on LGBTQ people and those who love them.

  • John 11:35. Sometimes the self-righteous zealous are their own worse enemies. When Christians behave little better than organized crime, the whole church loses.

  • no the church is, saying they aren’t worthy, because they are claiming that sin worse than every other unrepentant sin. All believers have them we just care about LGBTQ “sin” more for some reason.

    Act with more integrity and consistency is what the church needs to be doing.

  • No…not the church – Christ said they are not His unless they repent of their sin, just like everyone else. We choose to repent and follow Christ, or remain heathen.

  • We all have unrepentant sin, we just car about some more than others. Heck even if ppl repent we care more about their repentent sin than others unrepentant sin.

  • Philip – if telling someone what they need to do to be a peace with God, and become a member of His family (something good) is placing judgment on them, (and I don’t believe you are referring to godly judgment), then why do you think Christ came and taught what He did?
    He came to show us our sin – the reason He came and died for – and how He will overcome it for one. You think that is mean and judgmental? Well then, why would someone helping them, as Jesus did, be any worse?

  • Difference is, Philip – most Christians when they are told they are sinning, repent. That is the key to maintaining a relationship with Jesus. Our sin separates us from Christ and the only way to keep the line open is to give your sin to Him.
    Christians, who know they are sinning and do not repent, are not Christians.
    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

  • Daniel, I don’t abuse you as much as you hurt homosexuals. I tell you the same thing I tell them – essentially repent and be saved. But I am very please to see that I have had such an effect on you that you need to discuss me with others. Learning is the first step to helping yourself, and the Holy Spirit has you looking for answers. This is all good. Floydlee can probably help you more than I can, and this is good. You will get help. blessings.

  • Im going to bow out here. You can be greedy, you can be mean, you can be hurtful, you can ignore the poor, hungry, and stranger and still be aember in good standing at many churches, even lead one. But if your LGBTQ it’s a step to far. That isn’t godly love and grace it’s cultural determined discrimination and hypocrisy

  • I see you either haven’t read, or understood what I’ve been saying to you. Perhaps someone else can help you God bless you.
    btw – homosexuals are members of the poor, hungry and strangers category.

  • You have been extremely abusive. For instance, when I TRUTHFULLY told that I really did NOT want to be gay a long time ago and went to counseling to change this, you called me a liar. Counseling DID help me in many ways, but it had no effect on my the direction of my attractions. I did not want to be gay because I always wanted a family. It was VERY painful to accept being gay. But now, I see that children can be very expensive, and I don’t regret it anymore. I also have had a relationship with a man for 24 years now and for the past 7 years he has lived with me and he has helped me get completely out of debt. I really believe God sent him my way, because I had a horrible roommate before him (not a partner, just roommate) who really used me financially. The fruits of our present relationship have been nothing but good. As Jesus said, we shall know them by their fruits and the fruits of our relationship have been only good. Everything I have read about Psychology tells me that self acceptance is very important for mental health. All schools of psychology tell us to accept our feelings. This goes along with “grace.” So I don’t agree with you that I hurt people by telling them that they should accept and love themselves as they are, and that they should express who they are in a responsible manner. But to me, that is one very key aspect of Christianity, that we are accepted as we are. But then, you say I am not a Christian, because I believe in self acceptance.

  • I’ve never put you on the road to Hell, as you do others in the name of “love”.

  • floydlee – 10:13 is an excellent scripture! Thank you. I’ve added it to my list.

  • Did Jesus lie to us when he said that ALL who believe in him will inherit eternal life?

  • But you don’t believe in Him. You think He’s a liar and come here regularly to tell innocent people who struggle with homosexuality so, all the time.
    He also said, “Repent and be saved”.

  • He said believe in me. He didn’t say we had to be something we are not. We repent of certain behaviors not of innate characteristics.

  • You have discussed me with others too. So you have no integrity on that issue at all.

  • “If you’re going to make the break”… Writes the author, “make sure you know the cost”. I would add that part of the cost in making the break is the possibility of being wrong both in spirit and interpretation.

  • Actually, we ALL have done that one by now. As a theological wild child, I would simply say “it has its uses.” (Mwahahaha!)

  • True. He also said you must be born again.
    With the repentance issue…..Christ taught that homosexuality is unnatural, so, see…there is help for them. Repent and be saved.

  • My own feeling is that if it is all open to interpretation, then it is no more the word of god than whatever a fortune cookie says is the word of the 8 Immortals.

    And if one has to way the cost in speaking the truth, then it is clear that truth is not the highest value.

    But then, I’m an atheist.

  • Actually I was thinking if we are posting comments publicly online, we cannot expect people not to say anything about whatever we say. However, if you privately, one on one told me something, perhaps on Facebook Messenger, then it would not be appropriate to discuss what you said to the General public without your permission.

  • For myself, I can see that labeling Mr. gushee’ column hate is in large part the very thing he is talking about.

    I have been reliably informed by Super Duper Christians that disagreement isn’t hate,just as I have been informed by them that their judgment isnt judging at all, but simply informing.

  • Oh….you finished the comment!
    Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin Daniel. Quit using it as an excuse to exploit and harm others. If you want to engage in immorality, that’s your choice, but leave innocent people out of it. You should be worrying about a millstone pretty soon, I would think

  • Gregory is correct. Before the 1980s the Baptists, Methodists, Church of Christ, etc. were Democrats. Around the time of Ronald Reagen they all did a 180. Bottom line they remained fundamentalists, evangelical and conservative Christians. I’m a South Carolinian – I witnessed the switch as well as the vestiges of Jim Crow.

  • Believing in Him is accepting what He has taught, not trying to rewrite it to justify your sin.

  • You rewrote what Jesus said about judging and slandering and reviling other people. Clearly there is a place for allegory. Paul used allegory to speak of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians. We don’t have to take everything literally.

  • Encouraging people to accept themselves is getting them to sin? Clearly, reviling other people is a sin which you encourage in others. Perhaps the millstone should be your worry.

  • How is that an excuse? You have about me in a negative way to other people. However, since I post comments online, I can’t control what anyone says about my comments.

  • Long hair on a man is also unnatural AND disgraceful in 1 Corinthians 11:14. You never answered whether that is something to repent of, since it is also unnatural and disgraceful. Just attacking me as a response shows a very immature attitude on your part.

  • Jesus taught us to Love others as he has loved us. You completely disregard his teaching not to judge and slander and verbally abuse others.

  • 2 Timothy 4 – English Standard Version
    1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
    Fight some more with Christ, Daniel, and while you are at it, explain to Him why you have chosen to lead people into sin, rather than out of it, making of mockery of His death.

  • Loidoros or λοιδορος or someone who rails at, reproaches, reviles, heaps verbal abuse upon others is someone who will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 6:9. We are also not to associate with revilers in 1 Corinthians 5:11. Clearly this is a sin that you are guilty of. I don’t personally say you are going to hell, but your behavior doesn’t display any of the fruits of the Spirit, such as Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self control as listed in Galatians 5:22-23.

  • That is not what you do. You attack my character and integrity all the time. That IS slander and reviling.

  • “We get a warped view of Him when all we hear is, ‘God is love, God is love.’ It is true that God is love, but don’t lose sight of the fact that God is also holy. He is righteous and He will judge. You are not rushing into heaven on the little love boat today. If you reject His salvation, there will be nothing left but judgment.”
    Christ died for sinners so they will be able to see God. That was what His death was all about Daniel.
    You claim to know so much and know so little!

    1 Peter 3:18 ESV
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,”
    You spew all of your damaging trash, and have no concern for the salvation of anyone – not even yourself Daniel. You hurt people.

  • Awwwww….sorry Daniel, you are doing the victimizing. You victimize every homosexual you lie to, my friend, and I say that lightly. The victimizer crying victim. Amazing!
    Christ still loves you and will forgive you Daniel. You need to repent of your sin and choose to follow Jesus.

  • Also, in Greek, Paul used the very word “allegory” to speak of how he would talk about Sarah representing the promise and Hagar the law in Galatians 4:24.

  • That reply doesn’t address the issue. You probably can’t address it, so you attack me.

  • Okay people, let’s just tell the truth and shame da devil (Iike the old church mamas say.)

    The truth is that Sandy is a solid blessing to Daniel (don’t reply just yet Daniel!)

    Sure, Sandy’s style is different than mine, but it also gets the reader’s attention in its own way.
    (We both get our fair share of “you are an abusive homophobic hater hypocrite hooligan with reviler slanderer sauce” complaints. That’s just part of the show.)

    But notice, Daniel, how your one complaint there hasn’t stopped you from dialoging and interacting with Sandy, even sharing your life story with her in this thread.

    So that means that despite your one complaint item, you don’t really see Sandy as an abuser or a reviler.

    No cuss words, no belittling attitudes, nor bullying. You know she”s not a hater. She ain’t no lunatic loose-cannon slanderer like me. Sandi is a good influence for you and me. (Probably good for Ben too, but don’ t tell him..)

  • Okay people, let’s just tell the truth and shame da devil (Iike the old church mamas say.)

    The truth is that Sandy is a solid blessing to Daniel (don’t reply just yet Daniel!)

    Sure, Sandy’s style is different than mine, but it also gets the reader’s attention in its own way.
    (We both get our fair share of “you are an abusive homophobic hater hypocrite hooligan with reviler slanderer sauce” complaints. That’s just part of the show.)

    But notice, Daniel, how your one complaint there hasn’t stopped you from dialoging and interacting with Sandy, even sharing your life story with her in this thread.

    So that means that despite your one complaint item, you don’t really see Sandy as an abuser or a reviler.

    No cuss words, no belittling attitudes, nor bullying. You know she”s not a hater. She ain’t no lunatic loose-cannon slanderer like me. Sandi is a good influence for you and me. (Probably good for Ben too, but don’ t tell him..)

  • Not as badly as you hurt homosexuals. Christ compels me to treat you properly.
    Ephesians 5 11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

  • Whether I’m holy, or whether I’m not has no bearing on you are not going to Heaven by sending people to Hell, Daniel. You have to quit hurting people.

  • Galatians 4:24 is not what I taught, Daniel. That’s from Christ.
    Or, were you trying to evade my question, again?

  • Being a reviler as you are, you won’t go to heaven. I believe in Jesus and so I am saved.

  • No. I tell the truth about you and what you do – big difference. If I said that you are a stupid fool, who enjoys killing people and sending them to the second death for your father Satan – that would be attacking your charactor.

  • Actually, I am OPEN about who I am and I am not being secretive OR hypocritical by pretending to be heterosexual when I am not. One way that you would lead people to hell is trying to get them to feign that they are heterosexual when they are not. That IS hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is pretending or feigning to be something one is not. Jesus VERY strongly condemned that sin.

  • Then what were you asking? You seemed to be asking what a reviler was and I explained it. You evade my questions all the time. I always answer yours.

  • Then prove you are a follower of Christ and teach what He taught. Help people to go to Heaven, instead of standing in their way with your worship of homosexuality. Show you are working with Christ, not against Him. You hurt people, Daniel

  • You DON’T tell the truth at all. You LIE about my experience and make up things about me. For instance, you were NOT telling the truth to say that people like me choose their sexual orientation. It wasn’t telling the truth claiming that I didn’t at one time not accept being Gay. There is NO truth in most of what you say. It is basically slander and lies that you tell.

  • Again, I answered your question, but you don’t answer mine, mainly because you lack the knowledge to answer them.

  • Hmmm….he makes a comment, when asked to show proof, he evades and then blames the person for his evasion. Victim, victim, victim, Daniel. That’s all you keep saying.
    I victimize you, Floydlee victimizes you, I don’t know if you have accused Shawnee of that, but it wouldn’t suprise me….let me see, who else comes to RNS to victimize Daniel and try to help him go to Heaven when he so obviously doesn’t want to. That’s fine Daniel, just quit hurting others.

  • Saying I worship homosexuality is slander. It is basically bearing false witness. So, you are saying bearing false witness is perfectly OK, even though it violates one of the ten commandments? I worship God through Christ, not homosexuality.

  • If I came close to lying about you Daniel as you do about Christ!
    Homosexuality is a sin. Christ called it “unnatural” – that means, He didn’t make you that way.
    So, go on….tell me how I have victimized you again……yawn.

  • 1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”
    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
    “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22

  • awwwww, Daniel…..you do.
    If you were a follower of Jesus, my friend, you would follow what He taught.

    “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22
    He’ll even listen to one’s heart that they are trying to, but when you completely reject what He has taught, that is not following Him.
    Repent and be saved Daniel. That is your only chance.

  • Of course she is abusive. It was extremely abusive of her to tell me that I lied about not accepting my homosexuality at one time. It was extremely painful to come to accept myself.

  • Your “yawn” shows that you are very callous and uncaring about the feelings of other people.

  • Leviticus has nothing to do with same-sex attraction. It is only about anal sex between men. Argue with the majority of Rabbis if you disagree with that.

  • I’m sure God would be very interested in your list of what He can and cannot do to meet your standards of “divinity” — you should try to get a copy to Him.

  • I actually don’t feel victimized by Floydlee or Shawnie. They are wrong in their point of view, but neither one of them had personally attacked me as you do constantly. They are merely confused. You are spiteful.

  • We all start out on the road to Hell. Christ offers an exit-ramp. You either take it or continue on your way.

  • We worship God. Not the incidental verses of the bible. Think: a person is born gay. I know this–though heterosexual–for a fact. And you think that God, from that moment, condemns a child to hell? Try an intense reread with a better mentor.

  • It is a fact that you have very little sensitivity for the feelings of others. You proclaim that that is a virtue.

  • That verse is not saying homosexuality is idol worship. Would having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle be idol worship? Remember this is in Leviticus 20:18- the same chapter that you quote from.

  • Sometimes the truth hurts; doesn’t it Daniel. The truth is there for us to learn from though, and it doesn’t mean that Christ loves you any less.

    2 Timothy 3:16English Standard Version (ESV)
    16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

  • Homosexuals follow an idol because they reject the truth of God and wilfully sin against Christ, my friend. They have put their sex life before what Christ wants of them. That is idolatry.

  • When confronted with the truth, you turn on the “I’m a victim” light, rather than look at the truth. Daniel, you are hurting people and you need to stop.

  • He didn’t approve of anal sex, which is exactly what the text prohibits. Arbustin told you that.

  • It isn’t about “me.” In general it is a sign of spiritual immaturity to show little concern for the feelings of others. I can take it. I am merely trying to protect the public from your hate.

  • I tell you the same thing I tell them – essentially repent and be saved.

    – There is just one problem with that approach: it doesn’t work. Spiritually based “therapies” intended to turn gay people straight have existed for a long time now. They have ranged from the brutal to the insipid to the just plain weird. And yet, there is no real evidence that any of them have worked.

    You may recall when Exodus International closed its doors and apologized to the LGBT community for perpetuating he myth that they were in need of an amenable to treatment. You may also remember the numerous scandals of spokespeople for the ex-gay community admitting that they were never really cured at all. The number of ex-gay organizations is dwindling while the ex-ex gay movement is swelling.

    The predictable response is ‘not true, there are thousands of ex-gays out there.’ I notice that no one who has ever given that response has ever been able to explain where that statistic comes from or how it was gathered. Indeed, the organization Voice of the Voicless seems to have ceased its annual ex-gay pride marches since the turn out were not only pathetic, but made up almost entirely of AFA employees.

    It makes one wonder what, exactly is going on here. Is being gay simply too much for God to cure? Is being Gay proof that an individual is pre-ordained to damnation as the Westboro Baptist Church insists? Do gay people simply not pray hard enough?

    The more the religious community pushes the issue, the more failures they will see. And as their failures mount, we can expect to see more suicides by people who have come to believe that they have failed God because their cannot be “cured.” That’s a lot of misery for you to have on your conscience, if any.

  • lol….so it’s easier for you to draw people from Christ? I can see your reasoning…..lol

  • You know nothing about me. Let’s try to get people saved Daniel instead of making them homosexual and feeling good because they rebel against Christ. That’s what it’s all about – Christ saving people.

  • I don’t care what Airbustin says. Homosexuality is a sin that will keep the participant out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

  • Yet, I still help people to go to Heaven. Why is your purpose to pull people away from Christ’s love, Daniel? Also Daniel, whether I follow all of the teaching of Christ as you assert I don’t, is not keeping others out of the Kingdom of Heaven – which Christianity is all about. You tell people lies keeping them out of the Kingdom of Heaven, my friend.

  • When you get on Christ’s side, you can make that comment. Christ taught that homosexuals will not see the Kingdom of Heaven, Daniel. Work with Him.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
    Now, tell me how endorsing homosexuality not scattering? Thanks.

  • Homosexuality is a sin. Why are you trying to pull people away from Christ into sin?

  • This is what Christ taught as an example. The woman caught in adultery: ” go, and from now on sin no more.”
    Ex-LGBT for Jesus Christ
    homosexuals anonymous https://www.facebook.com/lordsetmefree/
    Restored Hope Network.
    These people help homosexuals.
    Christ also taught that He will heal us of our sin. In reference to homosexuality – 1 Corinthians 6:11 – “And such were some of you.”

  • All I am saying is that you don’t understand Scripture and you use it to excuse your hatred.

  • You are constantly preaching heterosexuality, which demonstrates you place that above Christ. Your very own words convict you of idol worship.

  • The scripture I cited should have been easy enough for you to understand, Daniel. It was saying that those in darkness – drunks, adulterers, homosexuals, et al, will not see the Kingdom of Heaven and have no relationship with Jesus.

  • Of course I am going to cite scripture condemning homosexuality, Daniel. I don’t want people to believe your lies – not upheld by scripture -and go to Hell. Christ said that unrepentant sinners have nothing to do with Him and will go to Hell.
    Where is your scripture that endorses homosexuality as strongly as Christ denounced it here:

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • Anal sex between men is homosexuality Daniel. Have you wrapped yourself so much in your lies that you have lost the truth of that?

  • Gathering sticks on the Sabbath carried the death penalty as well. In Numbers 15:32-36, a man was actually executed for doing this. How come you don’t preach against people doing ANY work on the Sabbath, since any work carried the death penalty?

  • No…don’t play your victim/diversion routine. That man was penalized for disobeying the Lord, as homosexuals who unrepentantly continue in the sin do, and they will receive the same reward.

    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

  • You can use me as an excuse, but when you meet Christ, He isn’t going to care about what you think I did, or didn’t do.
    You’ll need to speak as to why, after being warned countess time, you still chose your homosexuality over Him. Give Him a chance now Daniel. Repent and be saved

  • The only way to get to Heaven is to renounce your sin and follow Christ. Some people need scriptural reinforcement that they are indeed sinning and scripture provides that for them.

  • And calling scripture lies again.
    Daniel, Jesus loves you. Give Him a chance. Repent and be saved. That is something you will not regret.

  • Or plucking corn on the Sabbath as his disciples did is lot like gathering sticks on the Sabbath.

  • “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ” ‘Nuff said

  • Ask Him. That does not change that homosexuality is a sin, and sin keeps one out of the Kingdom of Heaven

  • You didn’t answer the questions. You said homosexuality is a sin because it carried the death penalty. Jesus and his disciples both did things that according to the Law carried the death penalty. Why aren’t these sins?

  • Ask Christ. I do know that He will not wink at your unrepentant sin, Daniel. He loves you, but if you refuse a relationship with Him here, He will grant you that respect in the afterlife also.

    Hebrews 10:26-27New International Version (NIV)
    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

  • Christ is a sinner to you now, Daniel? You justify unrepentant sin with that?
    Quit hurting other people Daniel.

  • One of the bravest things I’ve ever read online. Thank you for sharing that, your life is much more than the one thing everyone wants to identify you by. You are so much more than just, “the gay guy”.

  • God bless you for sharing your story. My story is similar. My husband and I have been together for 21 yrs. As a former Pentecostal preacher and missionary it was very difficult to come out. I lost my family, friends, job, and my christian university education was completely unrecognized by other institutions. It all comes down to people claiming they are somehow more christian than you.

  • ” go, and from now on sin no more.”
    – And how well does that work for you? Have you renounced all sins or have you been known to repeat them? Have you come to accept that you will just have to live with getting angry or feeling lustful from time to time?
    Of course you have. Christians always seem to be more forgiving of their own sins than those of others.

    “Ex-LGBT for Jesus Christ
    homosexuals anonymous
    Restored Hope Network.
    These people help homosexuals.”
    – No, they don’t. They might imagine that they are helping in some way, but the fact is their ‘clients’ are still gay. They might be shamed and frightened into engaging in opposite sex relationships or celibacy, but they are still gay and most often miserable. A tragic number of them commit suicide because they feel that their inability to change is proof that God has abandoned them. The testimonies of an increasing number of ex-ex gay advocates bears this out.

    “Christ also taught that He will heal us of our sin. In reference to
    homosexuality – 1 Corinthians 6:11 – ‘And such were some of you.'”
    – Except he doesn’t. There is no evidence to suggest that ANY amount of praying by ANYONE will turn a gay person straight. Decades of effort have yielded no evidence of success, although it has offered us a lot of people who later admitted hat they pretended to be cured, and a lot more suicides from people who thought their efforts to follow that single verse were hopeless.

    So, again, the question remains, what is going on here? If being gay is a sin and being heterosexual is God’s plan, why does god not help people achieve this? If you say he does, what peer-reviewed evidence can you cite to support that assertion? Simply, saying “but God promised” is obviously insufficient given the existing evidence.

  • Supposing there is One God, this individual is certainly aware of the ethical responsibilities involved.

  • This will really irritate some people. When you quote Scripture against LGBTQ you are taking a cultural context from 2000+ years ago and trying to apply it to a whole different cultural context (now). Instead, let’s take Jesus’ teaching on loving God, neighbor and self and apply it to our current cultural context which is different. This is not a bad thing but normal. The cultural context of Isaiah’s time was different from that of David’s time and they understood and applied the Torah and the other writing differently. That was what the prophets did. We do not take Scripture’s passages on slavery and apply them to our current culture, nor marriage even (how many wives did Jacob and David have?)The love of God speaks to our culture in just as strong and powerful a way as it did in ancient times, just differently. Come on goats, let’s all become sheep. Especially with our love and acceptance of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. We, as church have sinned

  • I’ve heard Tony Campolo talk about the abuse and threats that he received when he allowed God to change his heart on this matter. Same stuff, including losing most of his closest friends and 90% of his speaking engagements. But what pains his heart more than anything is the knowledge that his past judgmentalism caused so much pain and led many gay children of God to suicide. I pray that these “Christian” bullies will one day experience such shame and repentance.

  • Unfortunately King James 1 bible wasn’t the original bible and the bible wasn’t originally written in English.

  • You said anything that carried the death penalty in the Old law was a sin, so it was YOU who called Christ a Sinner.

  • Thank you for publicly standing with those who continue to be marginalised by the evangelical church.

  • Jesus did not wash away homosexuals from the Corinthians. It was the followers of Jesus. Jesus excluded no one.

  • Surely you’re not going to let facts get in your way, are you? You can prove anything with facts.

  • Fascinating how so-called Christians constantly fixate on sexual issues, despite Christ himself having virtually nothing to say on the subject.

  • If you’re supposing, you’re not believing, so it’s all theoretical with you anyway. You’re like a theo-questing Diogenes, looking for a God you can believe in, one that will meet your standards of how a deity ought to be.

  • When I am asked if I have been saved my response is yes. Because I have. The rejection of who I am by most Christian sects saved me from a life of guilt and shame. It also turned me from a miserable Christian into a well adjusted atheist.

  • Re this article: “Nothing he did before mattered. Nothing else he believes mattered.”
    Not so. His re-write of the Bible, called The Message, was already known to be problematic. Not only did he omit many important things, but he also used occult / new age phrases in it.
    That showed me back then that his beliefs were not Biblical and he was not to be trusted as a “Christian” leader. Sadly, the denomination he is affiliated with has denied the Bible, too. So they are of one mind.
    People can rewrite the Bible literally, as he did, or figuratively, in their own minds, by ignoring the love of God, the truth of God, and the power of God. But on Judgment Day it will be too late to go back and change anything. He has given everyone free will to accept or reject His Word.
    God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

  • Lifeway is known as a Bible bookstore (I know, they sell more than books, but that’s the general designation). If they decide to pull anything by any author who disagrees with and contradicts the Bible, that is certainly their right to do so — even their responsibility — and fits within their mission. It would be wrong for Lifeway to sell books which are not true to God’s Word.
    Let’s acknowledge the whole picture about this: Peterson first gave an interview to Jonathan Merritt in which he did not uphold the truth of God’s Word, but made judgment based on human reasoning (this was seen in The Message, too).
    But then when Lifeway was going to pull the plug on his books, he suddenly changed his mind and decided to recant. That old pesky love of money.
    I would honestly have more respect for him if he at least was honest about his decision to disbelieve the Bible. Christ Jesus said He prefers for people to be hot or cold — if they’re just lukewarm “believers”, He said He will spew them out of His mouth.

  • ‘He has given everyone free will to accept or reject His Word’. That would be His Word as originally given by the Holy Spirit to the Jewish writers of the OT and NT as they were inspired and written in Hebrew and Greek I presume, and not a fallible English translation?

  • The Lord says in His Word: “The way of transgressors is hard.”
    He doesn’t want people to be comfortable in sin. If they are, they will not repent and they will miss all that He has planned for them.
    Hell is a terrible place and there’s no way out of it, which is why Christ Jesus died on the Cross so that all who repent of sin, receiving Him as Savior and Lord, can be saved.
    God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

  • There is such double-mindedness about this issue. Proponents of this perversion acknowledge that it is sin, but then they say that all people sin, thus they’re “okay” — even to the point of changing God’s definition of marriage.
    This is the thing: I don’t see people — especially Christians — marching in Pride Parades for Adulterers, or Pride Parades for Liars, or Pride Parades for Thieves, etc.
    The Lord says that when people call evil good and good evil, terrible judgment follows. This is what is happening today. The time is short. Repent and Live!

  • re·vile
    [rəˈvīl]
    VERB
    reviling (present participle)criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner:
    I have not seen Floyd reviling anyone, according to this definition. If someone is a Christian, has become a child of God, he loves the Word of God and is not offended by it.

  • I left the Evangelical movement and became Anglican. Never been happier. There are alternatives.

  • Remember I later said that this really was far truer of Sandi than it was of Floydlee.

  • Hi Daniel, I just wanted to thank you for defanging some of the toxic doctrines here. I know it has to be taking a toll (troll handling always does) but know that there are many silent watchers who are receiving healing and truth from your measured, intelligent and bravely honest responses.

  • But not a single comment about the unceasing attacks of evangelicals on gay people, let alone their attacks on people not toeing their particular line.

  • Ignoring the love of god is exactly what so many evangelicals seems to live for, as they attack gay people for existing and daring to reject their authoritarianism, as they attack Muslims for not being Christians, as they attack uppity women who wish to control their own lives, as they attack liberals for not being republicans, and other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian, and Mormons for not being evangelicals.

    They used to attack black people for not knowing their place, and Jews for being killers of the baby Jesus, but that is now considered déclassé. However,there is still a market for attacking the Poor for needing medical care, food, Or education.

    so all is still right in the world.

  • That will be as useful as any other prayer.

    And I say that because I am 100% in agreement with you,

  • And slavery, burning of witches, and the torture of heretics comes from exactly the same Source.

    You can get your holy book to justify anything you like. God is what you use to justify that which cannot be justified by any other means,

  • Homosexuals Anonymous sounds a LOT like conversion therapy. No thank you. If I had gone to conversion therapy like my former pastor had wanted, I’d be dead by now.

  • Educate me, Sandi – what, exactly, did Christ say about homosexuals? It’s my understanding he never addressed it.

  • What even?? You don’t consider that a nasty and abusive thing to say? What is Jesus going to say to you about the way you treat people? We’re told to love, and to not judge. We’re told to not cast the first stone unless we aren’t sinners. So, unless you’re sin free– what are you doing? We are going to be judged as we judge others. And in case you think you are sin-free, the Bible tells us that all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. So you can’t use that same Bible to shame others.

    The reason that homophobia exists and homosexuality is touted as the worst possible sin and somehow different from all others by evangelicals and many others is simple. If men and women can “switch roles” or genders, then patriarchy has no basis. And the power structure that exists would have to topple. In order to keep women “in line” and justify forcing gender roles on people, homophobia is necessary. But don’t take a few Bible passages that aren’t in the original language and use them to make this “sin” somehow worse or different than your own.

  • Again – where did Christ say this? Be specific.

    It’s always interesting how some use their ‘christianity’ as a cudgel. That’s not what Christ taught.

  • Yeah – Christ was New Testament. *Some* of you always want to bring up Leviticus, as your cudgel, but you conveniently ignore all of the other prohibitions listed. Why is that? Why is it the sexual issues that you always focus on, but so conveniently ignore the others, and the New Covenant?

  • No. You’re the one, Sandi, twisting scripture for your own means, and issues. And no doubt about it – you do have issues.

  • Remove the freakin LOG out of your own eye before you try to remove the sliver from your neighbors eyes! Also being gay is not a sliver or a sin. WAKE UP!

  • As Anakin says below, we need a citation. Where and when did Christ say anything about homosexuality? I challenge you to read through all four gospels, and write down every time Christ told us to love others. Every time he told us to forgive others. Every time he got angry with people for forcing the rules to hurt others. When he said that the pharisees enforced the letter of the law but forgot the spirit of the law and made God angry. Every time he told us not to judge other people, or try to fix them when we were worse than they were. Now count them. Now count every time Jesus said that homosexuality was wrong. What was Jesus’ major message? Why did he hang around with “sinners” (we’re all sinners but he chose to hang around with people that the society of his time specifically saw as the worst of the sinners) who were still prostitutes, tax collectors, etc.? Ask yourself why the Gospel writers included so many of his exhortations to love other people. What did that mean? What were they getting at? Why did they emphasize it? Could that have been one of the things Jesus found most important? Did he intend to make his contemporaries realize that by following all the rules but not caring about other people or accepting and helping them where they were offended God? What about his reference to the story of King David, and his own allowing the disciples to eat wheat on the Sabbath? Healing people on the Sabbath? Why did Jesus break the Sabbath laws, which were, according to most Jewish people of the time, the single most important laws, in order to show compassion to others?

  • People just have to ignore the ravings of people like Floydlee., it shows his ignorance and that he is too lazy to research for himself what these Scriptures actually entail and what they mean in the times of Corinth.
    it has nothing to do with homosexuality., but about Fornication period outside of Marriage or so called Christian marriage., (Covenants) between people., but also about the rampant paganism that was taking place., mostly with the Christians ha.ha..read and research Floydlee and you just might learn something. , and stop regurgitating what you have been indoctrinated into over the years. A brother in Christ Jesus.
    Blessings to you man, and I pray that you will find what it is you need to stop the meanderings in your heart against LGBTQ people.. Do what Jesus did and does..LOVE..

  • You are full of crap, your self righteousness is appalling. I know you think you are a Christian but think again chick, YOU ARE NOTHING LIKE JESUS! You are an anti-christer. Here’s a little free advice: Get on your knees and pray for the truth to always be shown to you and then maybe you could quit spewing lies abut others. Good luck and no, I am not gay. I choose to love and support ALL my brothers and sisters. Milestones indeed.

  • Every time I go to talk about the scriptures in Leviticus, I am reminded that the writers of West Wing already did a better job than I possibly could. Posting the scene here. The first few moments don’t deal with it, but if you have the patience to wait, it becomes very relevant.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc

  • No…I’m following what He told us to do. But thanks.

    2 Timothy 4 – English Standard Version

    1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

  • Jason apparently you lack a moral compass.

    You don’t get to agree or disagree with who another person is, you choose either to accept them as they are or not, and whatever you choose says a lot about you, and nothing else. I accept that you are an ignorant bigot and I am so glad I don’t have to actually deal with you in person.

  • You do know that Christ is God? (John 1:1-10)
    You do know that Christ is the Word of God? John 1:1-10)
    You do know that Christ got angry with the people abusing the people in temple and making God’s place filthy (Matthew 21:12)
    The sinners Christ associated with did not continue in their sin.
    Christ said all over the Bible that homosexuality is a sin.
    We are to love other people. Sometimes telling other people the truth is love – particularly when they are hurting themselves and others.

  • “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of
    the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

    What makes you think conservatives will go to heaven in the first place? Jesus worked to help the poor and the sick. Conservatives want to take away Affordable Healthcare.

  • Homosexuality is a sin.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • The next chapter has this to say…

    1Corintians 7:6-9

    6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

    8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

  • The law is broken down into three categories – civil, ceremonial and moral.
    The civil law is probably still used by the Jewish
    The ceremonial law was fulfilled by Christ.
    The moral law was brought into the New Testament by Christ.

    Matthew 15:19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.20 These are what defile you.

  • You do know that Christ is God? (John 1:1-10)

    You do know that Christ is the Word of God? John 1:1-10)

    You do know that Christ taught Paul through revelation for three years in Arabia (Galatians 1:11-18) so that Paul could set up Christ’s church.

    Romans 1: 26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

  • Sandi: I really feel sorry for you., as Jesus said nothing of the sort., as a matter of fact, Jesus said nothing about Homosexuality..I am sure that you are a bright person and can really read and research for yourself without regurgitating old news., that someone else put into your head..You need to sit and be quiet for a moment., as Holy Spirit to guide you to Scripture and read and research, about the times., and places and origins and pagan festivals and what the “real” people of that time were all about., that what is and is being done in those times was for those times. Yes., God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the Power of Holy Spirit will heal all of us of our sins., He did it on the cross., but I for one will not crucify him daily., we all sin and fall short of the mark that God has placed on us., and we should see forgiveness daily before we even attempt to pray for others., So you also need to pray for forgiveness for the hurt that you create through “words” which do not mean what they really mean and Scriptures that have a different connotation and context that what you think they mean..Learn., ask questions., read and pray for a softness in your own heart and stop judging others and ask yourself if you believe something you were taught it, or because it’s true.. Many so called Christians do not question false assumptions because they might shake up their loyalty to their family, the church or Community, but, remember God’s truth will always win out.,and you should look at the fruit of the teachings of Jesus Christ, my prayer is that you will dig underneath every false assumption to the truth, and in the truth find Jesus…I am a Christian who happens to be Gay and have been in a monogamous loving Covenant for 49 years this past July 15th and I try very hard daily to follow the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..Blessings to you.

  • Daniel and I have been talking for over a year June.
    What will Jesus say? Good question. My belief is He is going to be pleased with how I defended homosexuals from the lies of the current culture and gave them a chance to become Christian also.
    The reason “homophobia” exists is because people have failed to read their Bibles, my friend and placating man has become easier than following Christ.

  • WOOOOOWWWWW., SANDI, SLOW DOWN, get on your face girl and ask for forgiveness oh I forgot you are Judge and cannot forgive..Well you better read some Scripture on forgiveness, I will not post them here because I want you to touch a Bible and see how it feels and want you to look the Scriptures up yourself so that you might learn..O.K..Blessings to you..

  • Romans 1:26 – 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

  • No. You do that every time you come on, Daniel. (edit) It’s a part of your schtick of lies.

  • There wouldn’t be struggle if you started treating it like the natural variable of human sexuality that it is. It seems like no one wants to understand gay people only change them.

  • DANIEL: You too need to slow down and not let this woman get into your head.
    She has no idea about what she is talking about., she is as ignorant as a gnat, and you do not need to give her the space to carry on her vitriolic venom on people of Christ., she is suffering herself from some sort of malady, that she had not recognized yet., and I am sure she is never quiet enough to allow Holy Spirit or God to speak to her.. Just pray for her., she needs every ounce of prayer we can muster for her. So let’s agree on that together bud., and Remember If God is for us., who can be against us…no one., never, ever NO ONE..You are loved and a very special child of God..ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT..We are all his special creations and I for one am loving it…

  • Sandi: you keep quoting the words of Christ., please back it up with Scripture., not some made up version of what Christ didn’t say…

  • And **that** is the kind of caring-but-upfront truth-telling we need to see from today’s churches and clergy on the transgender-activist issue.

    The LGBT activists don’t like to hear straight talk, but healing & deliverance & wholeness must start with honesty. Biblical honesty.

  • Yes Sandi Christ saving people not YOU., and in your other comments about Judging, Christ NOT YOU…so get of the bandwagon sister., and let it go., you LOSE. WE win..keep up this venomous attack on people and see which lever is pulled when you are called., Heaven or Hell..me thinks the latter…but there is still time to save yourself. Just ask Jesus into your heart and live by his standards., not by the standards as prescribe in the Scriptures by the Pharisees.

  • Romans 10:14 – ESV How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

    James 5:20 – New International Version
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

  • Not interested, but thank you. I take my instruction from my husband, pastor and God’s word.

  • Well not exactly. He didn’t approve of bisexuality. It was unclean (abomination) to go from sex with men to sex with women. We now know how to be physically clean so pathogens are not transferred. Much like the chapter/verses about planting 2 crops in the same field, wearing mixed fibers, menstruation, etc we have learned what is unclean.

  • Homosexuality is a sin.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • I appreciate what you say. I know that nothing I say will convince her. My main motive is to give the General public arguments and defenses against her vitriol. I suspect there are people who could be very wounded by her. Never in a million years will she change her mind on this subject.

  • First of all Sandi, so glad that you looked up Scripture., but, you should get it right. These Scriptures have nothing to do with Homosexuality. But about all sorts of sins., and I could go on about clothing., shell fish etc., but I will spare you that. But, it again is about pagan worship..You need to embrace Daniel and other gay people and get to know Christians who are gay and you will learn a multitude of wonderful truths. I might also add, that you need to find grace otherwise you do the opposite of what you are saying you are doing., You cannot bring people to Christ if you do not act in his likeness., and I have heard anything that would convince me that you have yet..but we will keep praying for you..

  • You are also guilty of Idolatry Sandi., for you use the Bible as some rod that you seem to idolize., instead of focusing on the Word of God., Regurgitation is a sin..

  • Interesting. Anyway, anal sex would have been thought of as “unclean” just like having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle was unclean. Both had similar penalties.

  • 2 Timothy 4 – English Standard Version
    1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

  • Gosh Sandi AGAIN, read Scripture and put it into context., stop demonstrating your IGNORANCE., it is not very impressive or Christlike. You have totally bastardize the entire Bible and should be ashamed..Again REPENT…

  • They were not intended to discuss homosexuality. They were intended to show you why scripture about homosexuality is posted.

    God never intended His children to become intimate with evil in order to communicate the gospel to those in it’s grasp. Robert Mounce

  • My friend Tom loves to through backyard bbq’s for a dozen or so of his guy friends. He’s 30 something and has never been married or dated. He has a big crush on Mike, he even calls him is beloved. Well last month Tom was caught kissing Josh. Boy was Tom in trouble. Mike was furious and wanted to get back at Tom so he told a lie that Tom had stolen a bunch of jewelry from his mom. Tom was arrested and punished. The judge punished him harshly even though it was a lie. Probably because Tom was gay…sadly.

  • Well., Sandi, I for one would never let you take my words out of context., so the answer is of Course the words of Christ are Scripture when put in context., you need to know what you are talking about, not just quoting words., which is what you are doing., next time you quote., trying putting them in context.

  • Probably true and very sad., I believe that she as I stated before has a real problem and maybe was hurt or something by someone who was gay or it is a family thing or something., and all we can do is pray for her. I am so glad that you are a Strong Man, and that you will not allow her vitriol to have an affect on you., but you are right., she could damage others who are on this site and reading. So let’s not let her continue her venomous attack on people who are vulnerable., because I am sure she has a lot more prejudices there somewhere., so if she is not attacking us., she certainly will find someone or something else to vent her frustrations on..Hang in there Daniel and many blessings for you and yours.

  • Over 1500 species of animals have homosexual members that form pair bonds. That means it is natural. It occurs in about 5% of the population consistently. That make it normal. Why would humans be any different? Why if god created all, why would he create some with one gift and some of another only to condemn some to hell and not the others? It is a twisted interpretation of scripture.

  • Do you need me to call the police? Where are you being held? Can you get contact with other humans? We will help…

  • They are not meandering. They are quite purposeful and direct.

    They are also not very nice. But being a loving Christian means never having to say your sorry.

  • There is something deeply painful in reading about someone’s support–and then reading that they have retracted that support, in the face of this resistance. Eugene Peterson did not count the cost–and that has caused increased pain to the LGBTQ community. As if we are worthy only when it is easy to say so.

  • You apparently lack the intellectual capability for reasoned, facts-based discussion. Your comment had nothing to do with the response pointing out your complete lack of factual basis for your initial posting. Instead of an intelligent, well-reasoned response to the challenge of your fact-lacking initial post, you throw around terms like “bigot” because you and others seem to think that just throwing around insults somehow is a valid argument for discussion. In reality, it just shows you to be ignorant.

  • Many people try to define judgment as pointing out what is in the Scripture itself because that way they can try to ignore the black and white truth of what’s in Scripture.

  • Really?

    So when LGBTQ children are thrown out of their homes by their parents, its their fault for choosing to LGBTQ? When LGBTQ people are beaten to death by bashers doing ‘the Lord’s work’ its their fault for choosing to be LGBTQ? When people commit suicide because they have internalized society’s hatred, its their fault for choosing to be LGBTQ? When LGBTQ people are fired from their jobs and denied housing for being LGBTQ (something still legal in a lot of states) its their fault for choosing to be LGBTQ?

    Here we see the incredible lengths religious pundits will go to assuage their guilt. Oh they may shed some crocodile tears over the unnecessary suffering that their rhetoric prompts. But when you get down to it, it really is the victims fault because they made the choice.

    If your God will grant you a modicum of courage then I suggest you come down off your high horse and actually talk to some LGBTQ people. Listen to what they have to say with an open mind. Let them tell you of their struggles, their fears, their concerns and their trials. Then see if you can tell them that its all their fault for choosing to be LGBTQ.

  • So why doesn’t the church condemn money-lending anymore?

    Exodus 22:25
    Deuteronomy 23:19
    Ezekiel 18:8

  • “…just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean they are.”

    Yeah, that’s what they all say. Consider this work from H.C. McGowan laying out the Biblical argument for racial separation. Note how, on the title page, McGowan identifies himself as a servant of God.

    https://archive.org/details/godsgardenofsegr00mcgo

    Both you and he appear to be operating from the same assumption: what you like is Christian, what you do not like is Satanic. And just like McGowan you point your finger at others and accuse them of living by that dynamic.

  • And again, we see the fundamentalists insistence on shutting eyes, plugging wears and screaming “Jesus, Bible, Jesus, Bible” in the face of all facts which make them upset.

    If you uncover your eyes for a second, then let me leave you with this thought: Jesus did not give you the computer you typed your responses on. The modern computer owes its existence to the work of Alan Turing. Turing’s work for England was pivotal to the allies success. He was a gay man. he was arrested under England’s barbaric (and Christian inspired) anti-gay laws and forced into “therapy.” Like so many victims of anti-gay therapy, he committed suicide.

    Society has learned from its mistakes in this area, even if you refuse to.

  • Given how useless prayers have proven to be in turning gay people straight and trans people cis, that really isn’t saying much

  • Proverbs 2:6-8Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    6 All wisdom comes from the Lord,

    and so do common sense

    and understanding.

    The young man did not come up with the idea on his own. Sometimes God uses the heathen for His purposes also.

  • If Jesus Christ isn’t strong enough to motivate you to live Biblically, you don’t know Him at all. Paul Washer.
    Homosexuality is a sin. Lying to them that it isn’t, isn’t Christian. 
    “When we become so tolerant that we lead people into mental fog and spiritual darkness, we are not acting like Christians—we are acting like cowards” (A.W. Tozer).

  • No, Roy, it wasn’t absurd. As we all know, St. Paul said that there is only one mediator between God and humankind – Christ Jesus. When we set ourselves up as judges of what is sinful and work to harass and oppress people who live or feel differently than we do, we forsake Christ’s teaching of compassion. And I have to say that, in accordance with traditional Baptist belief, Sandi is doing what she believes God told her to do, then I cannot castigate her for following God. I can however, point out the discrepancies between what she believes she is doing and the real effect of her words.

  • Sorry, but it’s only YOUR Jesus who supports gay marriage.

    The Bible’s Jesus, cares for everybody, loves everybody, gives kind favors to everybody, BUT doesn’t support gay marriage. He just ain’t no gay activist, it seems. 1 Cor 6:9-11 is how Jesus operates with us all.

    You gotta choose which Jesus you gonna serve. Your current selection ain’t no good, quite honestly.

  • Sandi, you are just a nasty ugly woman that probably has nothing else going on in her life, except to point fingers and judge others for their “sins”. It is people like you that actually drive people away from Christianity, you perfectly model the people Jesus called offspring of vipers. What is different from you and the Pharisees of Jesus time? Absolutely nothing, you are so focused on the letter of the law, that you completely miss the spirit. I am not a Christian, but I feel like I act and live much more closely to the spirit that your Christ represented than a blatant Church lady hypocrite like you. I was once a Christian, but it was people like you that made it completely distasteful and made me see that their is nothing loving, kind, forgiving, or charitable about Christianity. Personally Daniel and any other gay men or women in here, I do not understand why you would even want anything to do with this religion. The Bible is full of hatred and condemnation, and probably one of the worst moral models one can follow. It justifies hatred, judgement, bigotry and much more ugliness and divisiveness that it does love.
    Live your lives, enjoy your lives guilt free, let go of this religion that has not yet learned to walk upright, that clings to a 6,000 old earth, condemns actions that hurt no one, believes in a God that feels it must “test” it’s creation by giving them limitation that are meaningless and petty. Just my opinion, and I do understand the hold that our childhood beliefs have on us, but if they cannot hold up to logic and science I have no use for them. Daniel, I hope for a happy, loving and prosperous life for you and your partner, and the same to any other of my gay brothers and sisters. Sandi you and people like you are a curse on the earth and can rot for all I care.

  • So which is more important Jason? What consenting adults may be doing sexually or caring for others who are starving, homeless or orphaned? Which do you think the biblical Christ would have prioritised?

  • Gays in civil society and gays within the Church are two different subjects. What does equal access to the law in society, including access to the secular civil marriage contract, have to do with Jesus except where you want to impose a theocracy? And if you don’t think that various people should have equal access to the law, where in your bible does it say that you should single out the minorities that your religion doesn’t like and work to remove their liberties? Tell me where Jesus told you to persecute. Where did Jesus say to do His job of trying to figure out wheat from tares and purge society, or even the church, of them?

    As for letting gays into the church, where are you finding in 1 Cor 6:9-11 that you should throw your much hated and despised gays from the church any more than you should throw gluttons from the church? It is not there. You are to stop throwing gays from your churches or you will burn in hell. Acting as the Pharisees did results in loss of salvation. Jesus Christ is absolutely clear on this in Matt 25:31-46.

    Listen, you have to start obeying Jesus Christ. You cannot claim to be a Christian and treat people like absolute garbage. Christ commanded you and you must begin to take this seriously. You cannot play fast and loose with the scriptures, ignoring half of Christ’s teaching and leveraging verses in other places in order to persecute people. Such behavior is apostasy and constitutes a crime against God.

  • “What is different from you and the Pharisees of Jesus time? ” My desire is for people to become children of God.

  • I didn’t say anything about Obergefell or the Supreme Court this time.

    Far more importan than the courts and the politics, it’s WAY past time for Christians to stop bucking their own Jesus and their own Bibles on this gay marriage issue.

    Time to stop all that pretending that Jesus is powerless against SSA temptations, feelings, and habits. That doesn’t make sense. Even the atheists are more rationally consistent than these pro-gay-marriage Christians.

  • honey, if you are participating in homosexuality, you are not alive to Christ in God.

  • Actually no guy. It is God claiming that homosexuals will not see the Kingdom of Heaven, and thus teaching that homosexuals are not Christian.

  • Please spare me your holy drivel. That is the furthest from your desire, your desire is to appear better than others based on you ranking there sins against yours. That sounds like something the Pharisees would say by the way.

  • What are you doing to help homosexuals go to have a relationship with Jesus, my friend?

  • Christ disagrees with you Kang and He’s the One who holds the keys to death and Hades:

    Ephesians 5:5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not become partners with them; 8for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

  • I am not, I could care less if they have a relationship with Christ. I do not believe in your religion and feel it does more damage than good in the world. As a matter of fact I just got done encouraging them to leave that religion. And I am not your friend, so please spare me you fakeness.

  • Melissa – you are loved by God. You are loved by God so much that He died for you so that you could have fellowship with Him.
    If you are participating in homosexuality, you are the one blocking yourself from fellowship with Christ.
    Christ taught that He is faithful to forgive and heal us of our sin, but, we must repent.

  • Hmmm, well what did you mean by bringing up gay marriage? And really? You guys have made it about politics from the beginning.

    And yes, I think it is very much time that conservative Evangelicals stop twisting scripture and begin reading their Bibles. You must stop throwing gays out of the church or you will go to hell.

    You cannot throw people whom you label to be sinners from the church, especially on such a flimsy argument that NT references, including “arsenokoitai” (which is correctly translated as man-bed) actually refer to present-day faithful monogamous homosexual relationships and not the exploitation and rape of the lower classes, slaves, prostitutes, and non-citizens that was rampant in Roman life.

    I find it fascinating that a group of people is singled out for such terrible treatment using such flimsy and ambiguous scriptural justification. Why aren’t you screaming at your divorcees, which Jesus spoke much more clearly to?

    You need to be confirming monogamous faithful committed opposite and same-sex relationships instead of trying to destroy a group of people’s access to God, to society, and to the badly needed help in shoring up marriage as the central component of all people in our society.

  • Capitalism is not a poor man’s game. The free market is not for the weak and powerless.

    Conservatives believe the best way to help the poor is to not help them at all. Jesus would not approve. Conservatives believe that insurance companies are entitled to make a profit off the healthy while casting off the not healthy as unprofitable.

    Our country will be judged by how we treat the poor and weakest among us NOT how we treat the rich and powerful.

  • “it has nothing to do with homosexuality., but about Fornication period outside of Marriage or so called Christian marriage., ” you wrote. Christ taught:

    1 Corinthians 7: 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.”
    So that would say that anything except heterosexual marriage is immoral. And it also makes no exception for homosexual “marriage” – meaning homosexual “marriage” is non-existant in His eyes.
    So, now, you have reduced the homosexuals to fornicating….you know what Christ taught on fornication, don’t you?
    So, one way or the other, you are leading them to sin, rather than respect the living God who will forgive them and heal them of their sin, should they repent. That, my friend, is love – not encouraging someone to walk away from Christ and sin.
    Also, another question for you.
    Christ wrote the Bible for His followers…..why would He place in His word something about homosexual sex being bad for pagans, but not for His people. Why would Christ not endorse something for pagans, yet the same filth is ok for His people?
    You contradict yourself, my friend.
    Also, where does Christ condone homosexuality in His word?
    Thanks.

  • Claire, personally, I believe he is just an easily confused, old man who needs our prayers.

  • Are you considering helping people to become children of God, marginalizing? Am I understanding you correctly? Why do you think Christ came in the flesh?

  • Christ offers hope melanie. The homosexual advocates offer death and separation from Christ.

  • My reply to your post (and your immediate reply to me) are no longer appearing on my screen, I’m not sure why.

    On another issue, I definitely believe that churches should follow the NT’s clear, one-step-at-a-time instructions on church discipline before “throwing people out.” That should only be a last resort.

    However, that same Bible is clear about gay marriage, homosexual behavior, etc, as well. Christians and churches don’t get to blow it off, period.

    If you’re going to invoke Jesus, then invoke the Jesus of 1 Cor.6:11.
    Meanwhile, please stop rejecting the Bible. Jesus never rejected it.

  • Hebrews 13:8 – Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He taught that homosexuality will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

  • When what “consenting adults may be doing sexually” is putting them in Hell, they become a priority to help them become children of God. Why do you think Christ died, anyway?

  • Christ opposed same sex marriage:

    1 Corinthians 7: 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.”
    He gave no exceptions and taught that anything else is sexual immorality.

  • My purpose IS to give healing and truth to the “silent watchers.” I don’t have any illusions about persuading the anti gay people.

  • Whether it “follows” or not depends entirely on one’s angle of perception. From my angle, “supposition” acknowledges a possibility; “belief” affirms its reality –confirmed by the making of one’s life decisions based on conviction of its truth.

  • Kevin, I find it odd that you are more concerned with people being accepted when they choose to sin wilfully against Christ and His teachings than you are about them going to Heaven. Shame on you. Your priorities are confused for someone who says they work for a church.

  • If you choose not to take the One who holds the keys to death and hades literally, when He wrote the “story”, then it’s your loss, my friend.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • Ok….hmmm….Jesus died for the homosexuals also, so, that would mean, you’re lying. He loved them enough that He chose to die for them also, should they renounce their sin.

  • So you’re affirming that “conservative evangelicals” are going to heaven en masse?

  • Why exactly do you feel it is your responsibility to harass this young man. You are a hateful, spiteful ugly whore. I wonder what is the ugly secret you are hiding? Usually the ones pointing the fingers the most are the ones with the most to hide.

  • What do you say to Paul the Apostle who rebuked the sexually immoral man in Corinth and rebuked those in his fellowship who didn’t give him the boot?!!!

  • So interfering with people who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions is more important than helping those who have no choices and no hope? Interesting priorities there Sandi.

  • LIke I said, you peer into this magic eight ball and it comes up with the word ‘abomination’ and all done. No thinking. No regard for anything else in the Bible. And no understanding of sin. Just a deeply rooted, cruel taboo which defaces the beauty that could be seen in the Bible if we used it for good instead of evil.
    I do choose to take the One God literally…and also seriously. I look at the whole “story” in the Bible, not just the parts that excuse this horrid taboo that we and our ancestors grew up with.

  • Sandi isn’t “harassing” anyone – she’s correcting Daniel’s dedicated distortions of scripture. And what do you call your “ugly whore” epithet, aside from pure ignorance? You have no idea what she looks like, much less anything about her personal habits. And don’t forget this: “Usually the ones pointing the fingers the most are the ones with the most to hide.”

  • Nope, sorry, you’re putting words into Jesus’ mouth. He said nothing on homosexuality. Which, strictly speaking is not a 1st century term or concept. If you want to have a bias against homosexuality and/or gays, please don’t attribute it to Jesus. And our understanding and conception of Jesus HAS changed across the centuries. That is normal – we grow in wisdom and understanding (as was attributed to Jesus in Scripture). Look to the Hebrew Scriptures (the OT) and you can see how the Jewish people grew in their understanding of God. Too many people take our conception of the Almighty/Creator/God of the last 100 to 200 years and say “That’s how we’ve always thought.” It isn’t. Bless you and peace to you. May the love of Jesus inhabit you and comfort you.

  • You (all of you sanctimonious, holier than thou etc) fail miserably on SO MANY fundamental beliefs.
    To whit…… judge NOT lest ye be judged.
    All are created with perfection in HIS image….(that means exactly as they are, not after YOU have tinkered w/them)
    Homosexuality, like heterosexuality is a TRAIT, exactly like handedness, eye color, curly hair etc.
    additionally, the ancient texts you reference (the ONLY ones you people ever reference) give EQUAL weight and credence to not wearing garments woven of two different threads (fabrics), not clipping ones hair at the temples or rounding ones beard, eating anything w/blood still in…..I could go on, however the point is….. why no tirades about any of those?!?! Why do I NEVER read about the outrage of poly cotton blends?!?! I’ll assume that every man outraged has a beard and sideburns to his waist, otherwise you are all, once again, picking and choosing which is sacred and which is not.
    That is simply NOT how this works….
    Another constant among this crowd….the belief that homosexuality dooms one to a lake of fire, but divorce and remarriage….. that’s fine because they’re saved (?!?!?) Again, simply not how this works, divorced and remarried…. sorry, you’ll be in the very SAME lake of fire. Your bible (if that’s what you truly believe) is NOT a Chinese menu allowing you to pick one from column A and 2 from column B, it’s an ALL or NOTHING proposition my friends, so again….judge NOT lest YE be JUDGED.

  • Once again, you have missed the point.

    The Bible clearly condemns money-lending. For most of history, the role of money-lending was reserved in Christendom for people who were assumed to be damned anyway (particularly Jews). Heck Dante puts money-lenders in the same part of Hell that he puts gay people.

    Today though, most Christians seem to be unaware that money-lending is condemned in the Bible and historically was treated as such. Indeed, most American Christians carry a mortgage, student loans and/or credit cards, and see nothing wrong with it. The Bible hasn’t changed, but society has. Christians are no longer interested in condemning money-lending because it is not expedient for them to do so.

    Will we see such a thing happen with our gay neighbors? Will Christians stop harassing them and eventually forget that they were ever condemned when it is expedient to do so? Will people like you be relegated to the same dust-bin of history as are the Southern conservatives who tried to use the Bible to justify the Jim Crow and anti-miscegenation laws? Precedent says “yes” to all three questions.

  • That is not my experience. There is no freedom like the freedom of a gay person finally embracing their true nature and living life to the full – finally freed from judgment and abuse by “loving” Christians!

  • Just like being left handed or being born w/blue rather than brown eyes…. that kind of choice. As I said above…. ALL or NOTHING Sandi.
    Leviticus, which is usually the ONLY thing you folks ever cite, gives equal weight to all, so there better NOT be ANY poly cotton blends in your closet, your mate (if you have one) better have a beard and sideburns to his waist, and if you’re divorced, well…… get ready for that lake of fire….

  • If you actually did, and you read more than one chapter of the Bible, you’d understand it says we’re all born in HIS image, in perfection and beauty, just as we all are.
    It also says judge NOT lest YE be judged, which I SINCERELY hope is true in your case Dear…….
    you will one day be called to account, St. Peter will have your “inventory” of the thoughts, actions and words you have spoken and what you have done unto the least of Christ’s brethren (the ones you now so freely condemn) you have done unto HIM.
    If, as you say, you truly are a believer, now would definitely be the time to repent and attempt to amend your ways, thoughts and actions before its to late……
    imagine how you’ll feel seeing many, many, gay ACTUAL believers that have crossed over while Peter explains you’ll not be admitted to the glory of heaven….

  • Your type does not serve Christ by any means, if anything, people like you push them away because of the ugliness you display. Bob is correct, according to the scriptures you are guilty of idolatry as you worship the Bible itself, not God or Christ. Any written word is only an image of the original thought, therefore you worship the word as literal, making it an idol.

  • You are a sad, bitter, vindictive person….. you certainly do NOT walk in Christ.
    I’m tempted to feel sorry for you, but that would negate all the evil you promulgate.

  • She is harassing him, and who made it her place to “correct” Daniels “distortions” of scripture. Her ugliness is on full display without ever seeing her, her ugliness is the kind you can hide, all on the inside, hidden behind her “superior Christianity”. She is a whore for the Bible and an divisive version of a belief system. As far as me having something to hide, I am not one condemning others for how they live their lives and who they love, and who or how they chose to express that love.

  • People tell me, judge not lest ye be judged. I always tell them, twist not scripture, lest ye be like Satan. Paul Washer
    You may have been born in His image, my friend, but His image does not include immorality that He condemned. Christ wants you to be a member of His family and He has taught that homosexuality will keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Why would you wish a bad decision on your part to others?

  • And satan is a liar. How long are you going to allow him to keep you out of God’s blessings?

  • Daniel….. I’m SO happy you have a lovely partner and have found peace and happiness.
    There wasn’t/isn’t a thing wrong with you, you were simply born into an ignorant time.
    Orientation is no more a choice than the color of ones eyes… we’re born how we’re born, period.
    I’m truly sorry you were suffering for something no one can control.
    Family, in my experience, is what you make it, be it blood or chosen, cheers to you my friend!????? I’ll keep a good thought?

  • People tell me, judge not lest ye be judged. I always tell them, twist not scripture, lest ye be like Satan. Paul Washer
    Homosexuality is a sin that the Lord condemned. You don’t need to die for sex. Christ loves you and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us of our sin, should we repent.

  • Actually, if you knew Jesus is God, you wouldn’t make such uninformed statements. I have no bias against homosexuals, I want them to be a part of God’s family. Why do you not want that for them?

  • Yes. Helping people to be members of God’s family is important to them and to the Lord. He loves these people and does not wish to see them perish.

  • I have so many friends who also have been in long term, committed relationships….. it’s always amazed me how the people that judge are often on their 2+ marriage, but somehow feel qualified to judge others…. a bit like our “friend” Sandi….

  • Srsly? So why all the kerfuffle about his birthday? Why do you Christians lose your minds about that?

  • Christ deemed what they do to be impure and immoral. He loves these people so much He contributed a lot of scripture to help them understand that not only were they hurting themselves, they were hurting Him, by their rebellion against Him.
    He loves them dearly and they need our help to become members of His family. He is just to forgive our sin and cleanse is of it, should we repent.

  • You argue Christianity and don’t understand Paul, Kang?
    Paul was taught through revelation by Christ for three years in Arabia. (Galatians 1:11-18). Paul was setting up the church for the gentiles for Christ and had been chosen for that. He spoke for Christ and when he wasn’t, he was very clear about that.

  • She is harassing him, constantly badgering him under the cover of caring about him and others. What authorizes her to “correct” him, and his “distortions”, what makes her version of Christianity the right one, or her interpretation? As far as her ugliness, I do not have to see her. Her ugliness is on full display right here and now in these posts. She is a whore for her fake belief system that supplies all of her fake superiority. Personally I could care less if someone who believes in a fairy tale calls me ignorant, lol, I also suppose you believe Noahs Ark was real, and the earth is only 6,000 years old and creation took 7 days. As far as me having something to hide, I am not the one judging a young man for who he loves and how he loves. I am not hiding behind some fake superiority to compensate for whatever else is lacking in my life. I have nothing to hide because I don’t pretend to live be some morals, laid out in some ancient book written by man, claiming to be the word of God. I live by my own morals and ethics because the morals of your God are beyond disgusting.

  • Your difficulty is with Jesus who wishes none should perish but all should come to repentance. Homosexuality is a sin. Sin leads to death.

  • I am starting to believe you’re either a troll or you truly are evil…. you know absolutely NOTHING of which you profess, nothing.
    If you truly wish to be what you claim, leave now and start reading that Bible until you realize you are the antithesis of Christian….
    You’ve actually made me feel sick, you really are that awful…

  • Actually, I don’t know if there is a special blessing for people who help people to love Christ. I just do it because I love Him and don’t want to see innocent people go to Hell because of lies on the internet.

  • Ok…… I’m just going to say this straight out….. WE ALL HAVE TO STOP RESPONDING TO THIS PERSON…… she is …… sickening, and we’ve given her the soapbox on which to spew….. she’s the antithesis of decent, I just think we should stop….. she’s made me ill, I can’t be the only one….

  • We can infer from the behavior on display right here in this post. Not even remotely like your Christ. Mahatma Gandhi — ‘I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.’ That quote is you in a nutshell. It is people like you who are the biggest turnoffs for your faith. So if you think you are an agent of Christ and doing his work, you are sadly mistaken, you are exactly the opposite of a shepherd.

  • Its you that twists scripture…. you are amoral and sick, do not address me again, you are BEYOND redemption.
    The inclination is to feel pity, but I have NONE for you.
    YOU are actually what the Bible warns of, a heretic spreading hate.

  • Thank you. God bless you also. Christ was concerned about people dying in their sin, in case you didn’t know. I’m following Him. Blessings to you.

  • Are you interjecting yourself into a faith based discussion without a stake in the game? How incredibly pointless.

  • I seriously doubt that God withholds blessings from those who love too many people or the “wrong kinds” of people. 🙂 I only hope that God will bless you with a gay loved one courageous enough to bear your scorn. If you open your heart, you might just learn about Divine love through them.

  • Ignorance and bigotry are regular companions, but seldom has their mutual dependence been more flamboyantly on display than in your case. Your willingness to “suppose” what I believe in the face of your utter ignorance on the subject exposes that you’re dealing with this matter through stereotypes, not dealing with the actual people involved – and the ugliness of your remarks just reflects the ugliness of the stereotypes you’re working from. In the end, you’ve got nothing but attitude. But you’ve got plenty of that, and your attitude is that you hate God, God’s word, and God’s people. OK, got it…end of discussion

  • Loving and embracing gay people has nothing to do with “lies on the internet.” It has to do with real life and real people and real love. As a pastor, I hear too many stories of hatred and abuse in the name of Jesus. Not Christlike.